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Sorry… that last paragraph was meant as a comment to the guys at Toontrack, regarding the update. Not to you.

The setup process of S2 with an edrum kit is pretty painless in my opinion. The preset ‘edrum’ setup is a pretty good starting point. But there is always a little ‘tweaking’ needed to get it playing perfectly. (but this is the same with every drum software program)

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Well I’ve installed the patch, and tested it out.

And guess what…. I think Toontrack has done it. It sounds/plays MUCH better. Still maybe not completely perfect… but if they were a 3/10 before on the hi-hat… they are at least a 7/10 now.

(To Toontrack:) I think there is still a little bit of ‘cleanup’ needed when a lot of hi-hat samples are ‘triggered’ at once. Maybe a bit better algorithm when deciding what overwrites what… But it is very playable now. Thanks guys!

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I will let you know tonight.  🙂

btw… If the hi-hat issue is the only reason you haven’t bought S2… you should go buy it right now. Even with the hi-hat problem (which is its only problem imo) it is still worth every single cent that you pay.

Trust me when I say, there is NO other piece of software on the market that gives you this level of quality in drums, or the ability to make the kit sound exactly as you want it. Period.

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Hmm, I think I should clarify…. when I am talking about sample layers… I’m specifically meaning the ‘articulation changes’. The ‘sloppy sound’ or ‘bad crossfading’ is ONLY when the samples change ‘across’ different articulations.

ie. as the sound changes from the 1/2 open hi-hat sound to the 1/4 open hi-hat sound… During this articulation crossover is the problem. Not when just playing 1/2 open hi-hats and 1/2 open hi-hats next to each other. (samples of the same articulation play/crossfade perfectly)

After re-reading my posts, I think this is why there is confusion. I never actually specified this is only on consecutive hits while the articulation is changing.

I have also done much more playing and I have found what I think is the full root of the issue. When the samples are crossfaded together… they are not overlapping perfectly. They are off by a couple milliseconds, which is resulting in the two articulations being heard as two samples instead of one ‘hit’ being seamlessly crossfaded as the pedal moves up or down.(like adding a very fast ‘delay’ to a sound) This also seems to be much more noticable near the front of each sample. (right after the ‘strike’)… as the sample plays out and the sound of the hi-hat dissipates, it’s much easy to perform a smooth crossfade, so it is far less noticable.

To fix this I suggest maybe trying something like adding a variable crossfade time to your program… So that if an articulation change is triggered near the start of the sample, the crossfade will perform faster, (almost instantly) and as the sample plays out, any crossfade that may occur later on is done at a slower, more even speed. Also, if the program was ‘aware’ that an articulation crossfade had just been triggered it could further adjust or tweak the samples to ensure it is done completely smooth.

Hopefully this makes sense. If not I can upload some images showing exactly what I mean. I am also a software engineer so if you need any help with anything, I would be more than happy to.

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Joe: Yeah, I think that would be a good feature to add. Maybe even something to turn it off completely as well.

I still think the crossfading is out of wack a bit tho… it really shouldn’t sound sloppy even with a quick hihat movement. And when switching between the different sample layers (ie. cc data changing from 80 down to 30) going from an open sample to a closed (or vice versa) it should still be a completely smooth transition. I would be interested in knowing exactly how you guys have the software switch between one sample to the next.  Is it even a crossfade? (or maybe the crossfade is too quick) Or is it just stop the sample, then start the next?

About my low velocity control… I just really like the sound of the ‘tight’ closed hi-hat. More over the normal ‘loose’ closed hihat.

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@grandaddy:

Yeah, I did initial have a couple snare hits in there at the odd spot I think. (by accident) So there may be some cc data from that.

Here is my S2 file:

http://www.joelnielsen.com/images/S2%20Template1.s20

As you can see… I have ‘hatsCtrl’ mapped to CC4… and HatsTipTrig mapped to F#1 and A#1. My HatsTrig is mapped to D0 and A#-1. I also mapped my ‘closed pedal’ to ‘G#1’. I have a couple custom Velocity Ctrl values. That’s it…

I have tried tensioning my spring a bit more, but it didn’t seem to do a whole lot. If what you are suggesting by this is truely the problem, Roland has obviously come up with a solution as their samples play fine. Maybe S2 needs some options to make it less ‘sensitive’ to cc data changes. Quite honestly… the sound doesn’t need to change after the strike… unless the hi-hat has been closed. But trying to adjust the sound half way through from ‘full opened’ to ‘partially opened’ is completely unnecessary.
 
-edit- After some more playing it does indeed seem like this is what is happening. They (s2) are trying to change the sound to the next layer down… even if it means changing through 5 or 6 layers. Now… I have seen sample libraries pull this off with no problem. My guess is something is off in the crossfade / timing of their sample change-overs. If everything is timed perfectly, you should be able to crossfade to the next sound, at the same place in the next sample. (but either way I’d like to see an option to remove this, and customize it to my liking)

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Alright… I finally had some time to get around to this. First off, here is a .mp3 file showing the problem.
http://www.joelnielsen.com/images/hh%20audio%20clip1.mp3

The file consists of 3 sections:

– The first is very simple and plain open hi-hat hits. The pedal is not moving at all. I’m just striking the pad.
– Second section is the pedal moving up and down while hitting the hi-hat repeatedly.
– Third section is the pedal moving up and down very fast while hitting the hi-hat repeatedly.

As you can hear, each section does not sound right at all.

Here is the midi file that was used to make the audio file, so whoever wants, can try it out yourself and see if you get a different result:
http://www.joelnielsen.com/images/hh%20midi.mid

To ToonTrack: My email is on the way with this midi file and my .S2 settings file. Thanks again for working with me on this.

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ORIGINAL: Rogue
Anyway, please feel free to send a sample MIDI file as well as a .S20 to the support address (supporttoontrack•com) and we can check it out.

Hi RM, Yes I have all the S2 settings, ‘set’ exactly like the guides on the forum show. And I am having no problem with missed or ‘wrong’ sounds playing. I’ll get a midi file and .S20 file sent to you guys tonight or tomorrow. Like I said… everything is playing correctly, its just on fast 16th note hi-hat hits, WHILE moving the pedal up and down, that I get a muddy sound. (striking the hi-hat in the same place every time) I also have my td20 and S2 values set so I get the closed (tight) sound very early. If anything, I’m purposefully omitting some of the ‘fully’ opened sounds. (on my midi track, the closed sounds play when the ‘dots’ are at their highest spots) And obviously this isn’t part of the problem.

I will also record a ‘.wav’ so you guys can hear exactly what I’m hearing.

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ORIGINAL: rentadrummer

Do you have edrum preset installed, mentioned in this thread?

http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=61431&mpage=1&key=%EF%85%8B

Yes I have used the ‘edrum’ preset, which is quite inferior to my own custom one I’ve made using a manual setup guide on here. I am not having problems getting ‘closed’ or ‘open’ sounds. I am hearing the full range of sounds. It’s how they are being ‘triggered’ is what is the problem. I have done tests with only striking the top and only striking the edge. As you can see in my midi data, I am only playing the ‘top’. If I ever hit the edge my midi would show a different note being played.

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If you use the Joe King setup it actually helps a lot and makes the hi-hat reasonably useable.

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Ok, I’ll give that a try.
 
One other question… What happens if for the hattiptrig and hattrig articulations, if I just manually enter the note, and dont step down on the pedal for the pedal closed parts? (when mapping with your guide) Will this give me some weirdness as well?
 
thanks

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This is what mine sound like too… which is why I’ve been complaining the hi-hats still need work. If this isn’t the norm for S2, please tell us how to fix this!  thks!

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ORIGINAL: robertgeorge

Got Joe Kings project file which included his midi set up. i think my Hi Hat is working as well as anyones (fair to midland IMHO) but want to be sure. Ij you folks would be so kind to please LISTEN to the sound of the open edge verses bow and tell me if you hear any difference. It sounds like the same sample to me. The only time I hear a tip sound at all is when the hi hat is closed. The rest sounds like edge sounds. This is NOT how a hi hat plays/sounds. You should be able to get open TIP sounds right? Can anyone hear the difference between the open edge and tip when they play?

Thanks guys

 
I’m having very similair issues as well… the hi-hat does not seem to be playing all my articulations. (with td-20 module and VH12)  I’ve done the joe king setup, and this cleaned it a bit… but i still seem to be missing the articulations you are describing. (unless its just a very subtle difference.)

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ORIGINAL: Rammelt

I haven’t been able to properly map the ‘mutes’ for the crashes, using the vst plugin version of S2.

Why would you map mutes when you can use Aftertouch with the Envelope?

Best Regards,
John

 
John, A tried using the aftertouch with the envelopes. It does not work in the plugin version of S2. And I did get it to work fine in Toontrack Solo.
 
So I’m not sure if I have to setup the cymbol ‘mute’ articulation to something…. or what?
 
Also, speaking of cymbols… is there not ‘edge’ hit articulations for each one?

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Thanks JoeKing… this will work for now. I still really want to encourage you guys to work on the blending of the different hi-hat articulations, and getting specific presets for each edrum module. (specifically the TD20)
 
I haven’t been able to properly map the ‘mutes’ for the crashes, using the vst plugin version of S2.

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