[Rich Seaton]

Heh, heh, I think everyone has said “sorry” in this thread (including myself), you’re just the latest 🙂

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[Rich Seaton]

ORIGINAL: Scott

Welcome to the forum Daniel.

There is a line between arguing and discussing. I believe I never crossed into the ‘arguing’ with my explanation and ultimate conclusions. 

 
Maybe “heated discussion” but I certainly wouldn’t say arguing.
 
Anyway, we sorted this matter out (in a perfectly civil fashion) months ago…and Superior Drummer 2.0 remains the best of its breed.

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[Rich Seaton]

ORIGINAL: Davoe

I went to vote, and it said I could only vote once, on my first attempt.

Roland TD-8

 
You got more than one kit then?  Youn must be in the minority!
 
Anyway, keep voting please everyone, we have 23 votes so far 🙂

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[Rich Seaton]

Sorry about the fact that the poll page takes while to load but please persist and please vote if yoiu haven’t already!

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[Rich Seaton]

ORIGINAL: Scott

The term ‘tip’ is used, as Chris Whitten pointed out, because the ‘tip’ of a drumstick is used, almost exclusively, to the ‘bow’ section of a hi hat.

There is probably a slight Swedish to English translation problem so allow me to, hopefully, put this issue to rest until the next manual update.

<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad with the tip of your drumstick in the (bow zone) area.

 
Scott I appreciate your (and everyone else’s) stamina on this.  I stand by the fact that this is an important addendum to the manual.
 
As for the language thing, well I live in France and if my French was as good as the English of the guys at Toontrack I would be a happy man 🙂
 
http://www.howtosayin.com/skål.html
 
Driller
 
 
 
 
 

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[Rich Seaton]

ORIGINAL: Scott

In the instruction manual (as Scott quoted ) it says:

<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the tip

Well, if you quoted my entire copy/paste from the manual (see my original post above) you should have copied the ‘(bow zone)‘ that directly follows ‘3. Hit your pad on the tip‘ (instead of only the part that supports your argument). Seems to make it pretty clear to me when you include that little tid-bit of info.

 
The reason I left out the term bow zone Scott is because the two terms are contradictory.
 
“Tip” does not mean “bow”.
 
Using the two terms together just creates confusion which is why I posted in the first place.
 
Especially since “tip” and “edge” can be used synonymously.
 
If you like then:
 
<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the tip (bow zone)
 
This is still confusing. Why use tip at all?
 
Why not just say bow zone? 

 
 

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[Rich Seaton]

Do you see what I mean?

no. but i take your criticism as positive by any means.
I think you are taking articulation names way too literally which is exactly what they are not. ‘Hats Tip’ is a contraction of ‘Hats’ and ‘Tip’, not an anatomical description.

ORIGINAL: Whitten

So, to be pedantic, Toontrack could/should have called the two sounds Tip and Shank, or Bow and Edge. But as it is, most drummers will understand the two sounds being called ‘tip’ and ‘edge’.

But I’m not talking about articulation names, sounds or samples!

I’m talking about how the physical structure of the hihat is being described in the manual in the hihat programming section.

Look:

In the instruction manual (as Scott quoted ) it says:

<For the hatstiptrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘HatsTipTrig’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the tip

I’m not complaining about the name “hatstiptrig”.  You can call it hatsjellytrig if you like.

What I am saying is that if you want to explain to someone how to associate this articulation “hatstiptrig” with the bell of the hihat then tell him to hit the bell of the hihat. 

Do not tell him to hit the tip of the hihat because at the very least he will think you’re talking about the edge or, not understand at all.

Let me put it another way.  Let’s say you want to trigger the sound of breaking glass by hitting the bell of the hihat.  Imagine that this is what you find in the instruction manual:

<For the hatsbreakingglasstrig:
<
<1. Select the ‘Hats’ from the Instrument section in the bottom right corner then the ‘Hatsbreakingglass’ Articulation
<2. Engage the ‘Learn’ button
<3. Hit your pad on the breaking glass area

What <3 should say is:  Hit your pad on the bow.

I think we misunderstood each other and unfortunately that makes me look like I’m being petty but I’m really not, honestly 🙂

I regret snapping at Colle and I’m sorry man.  You misunderstood my question but I assumed you were being obtuse.

ORIGINAL: Whitten
They are Swedish and make a fine virtual drum kit so I don’t worry about it.

I agree 100% with you (as I said in my last post).  I’m just trying to help clear up what I consider to be a significant oversight in an explanation in the manual in what I’m sure you would agree is a vital area ie the hihats. 

I believe that this would help a lot of users and so ultimately Toontrack.

Once again I’m not trying to bash Toontrack, I’m just trying to help! 🙂

Please have another read of the explanation and see what you think.

Cheers
Driller

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[Rich Seaton]

Just to confirm, I meant to say that Olle was using the term “tip” absolutely correctly (if that doesn’t sound too patronising) it’s just that I wasn’t talking about drumsticks.

About the nomenclature:

I don’t need to remind you that we are talking about programming the link between the hihats and Superior.  ie linking different parts of the hihat cymbal to a sample in the software.

We are not linking parts of a drumstick to a sample 😉

And what if I use brushes?  Are you then going to start talking about hitting the “brush head” of the cymbal?  It just doesn’t make any sense.

You say that you can hit the bow with the tip or the shank of the stick, well you can hit it with a teapot if you like but it’s still called the “bow”.

I don’t see how this affects the expansion of the software.

You seem to be mixing up the anatomical parts of the hihat in the instructions telling you which part to hit in the programming process, with the actual names of the samples in Superior.
 
Remember that with electronic drums it doesn’t matter what part of the stick you hit them with, or indeed what you hit them with, the sound linked to that pad or pad part is still the same.

Just to be clear I’m not complaining about what you are calling your samples, I am saying that when you tell someone to hit the “tip” of a cymbal when you mean the bell then this is very confusing.

I agree that our ears are very important criteria but our ears are not used in this programming process.  It’s just pushing buttons.

Do you see what I mean?

I might add that this criticism is meant to be helpful to you and the community here and I remain a loyal fan of Toontrack and all its products 🙂

(Edited to use the word sample instead of functionality)

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[Rich Seaton]

Thanks for the explanation Scott, if that’s really the nomenclature used in Superior etc then it is rather unfortunate.

So much so that I need to confirm this.

You are sure that the word “tip” in the manual refers to the bow zone, the bow zone being the majority of the upper surface excluding the center (bell)? 

The reply above from Olle confirms the absurdity of the use of this term.  IE “the tip of a drum stick”, which is a legitimate term, but how is the flat surface of a cymbal in any way like the tip of a drumstick?(or the tip of anything else for that matter?).

If this is the case, may I humbly suggest that you change all incidences of the word “tip” in the manual when referring to the bow, for the good of the users?

As you well know the programming of the hihats are central in the quest for a perfectly working E-Drums-Superior/EZ system. 

For such an important part of the programming, this nomenclature has the potential to cause a lot of confusion (it certainly drove to me to distraction).

Sincerely
Driller

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[Rich Seaton]

ORIGINAL: Olle

You hit the Bow of your hihat with the Tip of your stick.
You hit the Edge with the Shaft or the Shoulder. /Olof W

Come on man; you have got to be joking :/

I’m not talking about drumsticks.

We are talking about areas on the surface of the top cymbal of the hihat.

A cymbal has a BOW, a BELL and an EDGE.

In the SD manual it differentiates between what it calls the TIP and the EDGE of the hihat .

I would like to know with which areas these terms correspond IE the BELL, BOW or EDGE.

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[Rich Seaton]

Ahhhh, I see.  So it’s not the notes per se that tell Superior the hi-hat position, all they do is indicate that the hi-hat is being hit. 
 
Presumably the factory table decodes whether the hit is bell or tip.  (And I imagine this factory table is not user definable by…er… definition?)
 
And then the current CC4 value tells Superior which sample to play as far as how open/closed the hi-hat is.
 
 

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[Rich Seaton]

Hi John, thanks for reply and I really appreciate the explanation but actually this wasn’t what I was looking for! 🙂
 
I had read of course the explanation for programming the hi-hat articulations.  In thinking I wanted this again I’m surprised you didn’t give me a good flaming!
 
What I would like to know is how the Superior 2 software interprets the hi-hat notes and controller4 messages. 
 
When we type in all the notes of the hi-hat under the hatsctrl articulation we don’t give any indication of which of these notes are hi-hat open and which are hi-hat slightly closed.  Of coursen it could be the CC4 messages which modify the note messages but how does Superior know this?
 
 
 
 

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[Rich Seaton]

OK so further reading of the E-Drums PDF  shows that apparently it is the HATSTRIG articulation which is the most important (aside from the ClosedPedal articulation-but this is very easy to understand).
 
So, one is supposed to enter all of the notes output by the hi-hat with pedal open, closed and in between (there are no specific notes for inbetween) under the Hatstrig articulation.
 
So how does Superior 2.0 understand this? I think this is the key to understanding how this whole thing works.
 
Thanks for following (and replying!)

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[Rich Seaton]

This is a bit late (just saw your thread) and I hoped you worked it out.
 
It sounds like you needed to reinstall the midi drivers.

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[Author]

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