TD-20 and Superior (Drum Map)

[RobJames]

Gentlemen I’m new to this Forum, and like everyone else I’m here searching for answers. My goal is to successfully map and trigger Superior using a Roland TD-20 and VH-12 Hi-Hat inside my DAW of choice. I’ve read all there is on this subject in this Forum, and it’s only lead to more confusion and frustration. I mean one would think this subject would have been thoroughly thought out, with posted step by step instructions. But this is not the case. My reasoning behind this, is Toontrack must have used the best drum brain at their disposal (TD-20) at the time of Superior’s creation and the best Hi-Hat Controller available at the time (VH-12) to create at least the midi files Nir Z made. Somebody must have sat down with Niz Z and mapped out all the articulations and created a drum map for him, that was used in all subsequent sessions. Would that not be a reasonable assumption? So one would think that this all has already been worked out, and that an in the box solution (drum map from TD-20 to Superior) would be available? If not in the package itself, at least as an after market product.
I realize the mapping confusion is not the fault of Toontrack’s, but more an issue that Roland created by their silly Hi-Hat mapping scheme. For the most part Superior is almost GM Midi compatible, except for the open Hi-Hat and the Tom Rims. But it’s the melting of the two entities, Roland Hardware and Toontrack Software where the real headache resides. Believe me, I’ve already spent way too hours trying to resolve this. Someone, somewhere out there, has the solution, I’m sure of it. Please, if anyone has a tried, tested and true drum map for triggering Superior with the TD-20 let me know……..I beg of you.

Failing that, is there any way to get in contact with Nir Z? He has to know the answer!

Rob

Topic

[Scott]

Please try loading the ‘E-drums’ preset from the Mapping page in S2.

Mapping Page->Presets (menu right above the keyboard)->MIDI->Note Mapping->E-Drums

This preset should get to almost perfect mapping (as long as your Roland is set to the default settings). You may need to use the ‘Learn’ feature in S2 if there are a few kit pieces that don’t map accordingly, but the preset should take care of the hi hat mapping.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[RobJames]

Thanks Scott for the quick reply. Off to try that right now!

[RobJames]

Ok, I’m back from testing. There is no marked improvement from what I have been able to achieve with my own tweaking. First of all, this is not actually a drum map (which is partly what I’m looking for) but an internal software mapping solution in Superior. The outstanding issues remain the same, there is no way to get a tight closed Hi-Hat for one. Secondly the Hi-Hat maps to D0, where it should be F#1 for a closed Hi-Hat, G#1 for a pedal Hi-Hat and A#1 for an open Hi-Hat. Crash 1 maps to G2 where it should be C#2. But Crash 2 does now map correctly to A2, so that is an improvement. But really it’s all about Hi-Hat articulation for me. I mean playing just my TD-20 by itself offers me incredible articulation, but that doesn’t transfer through to triggering Superior. Is there no way to find out how Nir Z overcame this issue?

[John]

RobJames,

loading the E-drums MIDI Preset sets up the hatsTrig scheme in a way that works with any Roland module. I do recommend reading up on it in the latest available PDF Manual.
It does NOT map separate articulations to notes save but the pedal; it maps the ‘Trig’ control “notes” to the GM notes and then uses the foot controller CC value to determine the value of openness and then the transmuting blends between the open stages.
Your Roland module will send:
Open Bow 46
Closed Bow 42
Open Edge 26
Closed Edge 22
Pedal 44

The MIDI Preset should clear all individual articulations, except ‘Closed Pedal(44)’, and set the ‘hatsTipTrig’ to respond to both 42 and 46 and the ‘hatsTrig’ to respond to 26 and 22.
The CC value will, as I wrote above, make the engine switch between the different ‘Open’ articulations, where 127 is fully closed (tight) and 0 is fully open.
The response curve can be edited, should it not fit your playing style and/or hardware, and there are also a few CC curve presets that can be applied. This is covered in the manual.
There’s no other Mojo available, nor did Nir Z use anything else.

When you are set up with HH and everything else, save this as your own E-drums MIDI Preset.

On a side note; Personally, I have set up a small rubber pad just above my Hart HH to cater for when I need the BellTrigs. I use a TD-12 with a Hart Pro kit.

BR,
John

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[RobJames]

John, thank you for your clear and concise answer. I will download the .pdf and read it carefully, I’ll also download the latest update 2.3.1 in case that holds anything that may help me. I may not have been as precise as I would have liked to have been, in describing exactly what I’m trying to do. Not only do I want to trigger Superior from a TD-20 I want to create a drum map that is GM Midi compatible. So that any midi recordings I do, are captured in GM format, so that they can be played on any hardware or software GM compatible drum machines. Up until now I’ve been trying to modify/create drum maps by altering their input and output notes. But now I’m going to see how things work if I modify the TD-20 midi output notes, so that they meet GM convention. It might prove to be a lot easier to modify existing drum maps that way. Time will tell. I did find a nice Superior Drummer drum map created by a columnist at Sound on Sound, that I’m in the midst of testing. This is the kind of resolve I’m looking for, albeit I’ll have to modify it greatly to make it GM. I would upload it here, but there seems to be no way to upload files to this forum. I will report back though, if I come up with a final solution, if only to make things easy for those going down the same path. Thanks for your help.

As a side note, both the Roland TD-20 and Superior are GM compatible as far as the Kick, Snare, Toms and Ride go…………why they veered off the path with the Hi-Hats and Cymbals I’ll never understand. But it’s still no where near as bad as the mapping scheme chosen by Addictive Drums. Which is so bad, I had to return that Product for a refund.

[Nathan]

I think SD2 mapping is based on GM-extended, but it will play correctly if fed GM (correct me if I’m wrong here, but I’ve played GM-loops into it).

The thing about GM is it’s just a bit limited, not enough notes available for many (any) drum articulations, and that will be reflected in the sounds you get from GM drum MIDI. More articulations, more life-like and organic the possibilities.

>

SD2.3, NYII, C&V, MC, MF, ED, Latin Perc, Twisted, Pop, N1H, Electronic, Classic, Funkmasters, Rock Solid, Blues, Indie-Folk.

[megapeng]

hey rob
dunno how far you ve gotten so far i do have the td 20 and a pretty decent setup running ,
i would need to know what libraries you have, then i could send you some presets done including the roland td20 preset.
i usually (studio purpose) run two instances of drummer, one ist drums only and the second one cymbals only using the roots cymbals because they are the most advanced in terms of articulation – specially the hats are the very best.
and not to forget the “rear oh” samples wich are very neat for the drummer playing with headphones.
as the cymbals are the “biggest” samples it makes sense.
this way i only load different drums (kick snare and toms) if i want to change….

cheers
Workstation : i7 3770,16gig ram win 8.1
Laptop : i7-9750H, ConceptD CN715-71, 32gig ram win 10 Pro
Allen and Heath D live and Sq 7 / Dante / BabyfacePro
Samplitude Pro x 5 Suite / Gigperformer4 / Pianoteq Standard 7 / SD3 drummer Toontrack / Arturia V5 Collection /
Pearl Mimic Pro / Drum Tec Shells / Roland Cymbals / ATV optical Hats /Arturia Keylab 49 MK2

[tomhertling]

Hallo,
Im using the TD-20 and, of course the SD 2.0. I’ve also some Problems with the HH Controller. If you get new results, please let me know.
In other words Im looking for some gys who are using the same equipement…

[Christopher Mason]

[Author]

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