Superior Drummer vs EZ Drummer – Browser/song generator questions

[sublunar]

I’m trying out EZdrummer2 and at first I was blown away. Absolutely loved it at first try. But I’ve since run into some really stupid limitations and now I have questions about SD vs EZD. The fact that they’re totally separate is incredibly stupid. Different user interface, midi packs/samples and whatnot for each. Couldn’t be a worse way to do it.

Second, the fact that they purposely limit you on the back end of EZD is also incredibly stupid. Sure you can mix and match drum components but they bake in certain effects in each kit so the same drum component doesn’t seem to sound the same in a different kit. You try to mix and match only to find it sounds completely different in this other kit you were building. A LOT of the drum components are so bad sounding they’re completely unusable in any kit. And you can’t apply different effects that sound good in one kit into a new kit. Not only that but the percentages on the effects are nonsensical. 50% seems to be the default UNapplied effect percent in some effects but not others. Then there’s the mixer in which they limit you to having both the mics for the cymbals and the overhead mics lumped together. You try turning down the overhead/ambient bleed and your cymbals disappear. Unless I’m missing something. So you don’t really have as much flexibility as you thought you were getting. I was so close to dropping some cash but now I’m wondering if I want to invest in an intentionally flawed system.

-Question 1: Does Superior Drummer have any sort of song generator/rhythm finder like EZD has? My research thus far has led me to believe SD does not have this. Which would be another unnecessarily stupid limitation.

-Question 2: If I buy EZD and then upgrade to SD, do I still have license to freely use EZD?

I want the good sample quality of SD but the usability of EZD, which I’m thinking is not possible. Which is the third REALLY STUPID thing I’ve found about this otherwise awesome piece of software.

Just make ONE product with the usability of EZD with the under the hood possibilities of SD. Making two inferior products when you could have a single masterpiece of drum software is a really dumb move.

Topic

[Juicy]

Well thats a first post boom. Not to say you don’t have a point at all.

Q1- No, for you a biggie but for others maybe not so. Leave the rest to TT to address.
Some of us who use SD2 would never want or need Midi Browsing/Finding and Song Generator functions of EZD2.
We can play or do not wish to use generic/generated content in our original music.

The audio/mixing flexibility in SD2 is its main difference and why i prefer it.
Some of its expansions have more raw untreated sounds that would just not appeal to the non experienced people, they just would complain about it sounding bad.
EZD wasn’t intended for people who want to get under the hood or deeper into mixing or changing things at all.
Now i don’t mean to say that the newer EZD2 ( updated later than SD2 ) doesn’t have some cool nifty tricks, but its all under the EZ vibe.
Personally i don’t mind kicking ideas around on demos with EZd2 if time is an issue but still only use Sd2 for mixing.

Finding a way to keep it just as simple and more powerful may be more of a challenge than us users can understand. Hopefully its on the way.
SD3 will need to surpass EZD2 in every way and the clock is getting some cobwebs.

[sublunar]

Still waiting for an official answer to my questions. Not sure if I was a little too hostile in my first post or what but if this is indicative of TT’s level of support…..

@juicy said:
We can play or do not wish to use generic/generated content in our original music. 

I can play too. The problem is the amount of time it takes to program new grooves. I don’t have an electronic kit and well I’m not the greatest at drumming but I can drum. I can also program MIDI. I’ve spent way too many hours doing it manually. There’s something magical about getting new rhythms at the click of a button and instantly jamming to it. Not only that but I’m pretty sure the majority of the people using this feature still tweak and change up the generated content. I can’t imagine anyone actually takes the generated content as-is and creates whole songs out of it. But even if they did, it’s not much different than taking what your drummer generates for you. It’s not like any guitarist in a band with a real drummer is dictating every move that drummer makes. So the argument about generated content doesn’t really hold up that well. A real drummer played the grooves to begin with. The speed with which this program allows new rhythms to happen is the absolute best feature of EZD. It felt like I was jamming with a real drummer. That’s the one real masterful piece of this software.

@juicy said:
EZD wasn’t intended for people who want to get under the hood or deeper into mixing or changing things at all. 

It’s cute that Toontrack think they know what people want and purposely limit their options just because they can later try to up-sell them when they reach the brick wall of intentional limitations. I felt rather tricked when I ran into these limitations. On its face, EZD is everything a drum software needs to be. I was excited and in love. But once you spend a little time in it, you run into the brick wall. At which point the response seems to be “buy SD!”. They purposely keep you from being able to make it sound better. They bake in the effects per kit. They sum multiple microphones into one. Completely unnecessary and just a total slap in the face to people who thought they were getting the functionality it appears to have at face value. I can understand paying more for higher quality samples. I can’t understand their reasoning for keeping these two things in two totally separate programs/GUIs.

I write and record and mix and master. Like the vast majority of computer based musicians these days. Anyone who doesn’t do all these things is lacking the complete picture and their music will suffer as a result. If you don’t know how to mix then you’re going to get lesser quality results. Mixing is an integral part of computer based music making these days. It’s simple, it’s not some black art that needs to be addressed separately. The fact that I can’t turn down the ambience while keeping the cymbals in these kits is an absolute affront. EZD is awesome in a jam/practice setting but because of these unnecessary limitations, it doesn’t appear to be good enough for an album. And if it’s not good enough for an album then why should I buy it?

@juicy said:Finding a way to keep it just as simple and more powerful may be more of a challenge than us users can understand. Hopefully its on the way. SD3 will need to surpass EZD2 in every way and the clock is getting some cobwebs.  

Superior Drummer looks like it was designed in the 90s and was done completely independently from EZ Drummer. It looks like a pain in the ass to use. It doesn’t look fun or intuitive. It’s ugly and doesn’t even have the features of its cheaper sibling. All it has going for it is better sample quality and the removal of the mixing limitations. The changes that would be needed to make EZdrummer better are things that could have been easily put into the program. High quality samples, individual mics per drum component and leave the effects up to the user to apply. Very simply. But this would have made SD obsolete so they seem to have purposely not allowed this.

It makes me angry enough to not want to buy SD just based on principle. If I lose my ability to use EZ when I upgrade then I will certainly not. If I retain my license for EZ then I will be interested in upgrading just to stay in the same environment. But it still means I’ll be switching between two programs and that is enough of a deterrent that my eyes are wandering to the competition to see where my money is best spent. Lots of competition out there.

[Scott]

Question 1: No, S2 does not contain a song generator/rhythm finder.

Question 2: Yes, if you crossgrade from EZD2 to S2, you will still have access to both plugins.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[sublunar]

So I’m looking around and Superior Drummer 2 was released in…. 2008…

If I upgrade to this nearly 10 year old software, will I get the next version for free or will that require even more of my money? Seems like everywhere I turn with this software it’s trying to suck more money out of me. You guys realize you have some stiff competition out there now right?

[Scott]

@sublunar said:
So I’m looking around and Superior Drummer 2 was released in…. 2008…

If I upgrade to this nearly 10 year old software, will I get the next version for free or will that require even more of my money? Seems like everywhere I turn with this software it’s trying to suck more money out of me. You guys realize you have some stiff competition out there now right?  

I don’t know what the upgrade policy will be if and when a new Superior Drummer is released.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[sublunar]

That really sucks. I loved EZ Drummer at first. I wanted to dive in deep, but my head hit a brick wall and now I’m pulling back. If there’s no such upgrade policy in place then I’m going to assume it will cost even more. It’s a shame. EZ Drummer with the power of *actual mixing* with *high quality samples* would be the best thing out there. As it is, EZ Drummer’s arbitrary limitations means it takes the place of a writing/practice tool and nothing more. I’m just glad I didn’t buy a ton of kits and things like I was planning to do. And I definitely will not be buying the nearly 10 year old product called Superior Drummer. Lots of other options out there. Thanks for your help.

[Author]

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