S2, still having problems getting the hi-hat to play realistically…

[plink]

Hey,

Just wondering if there’s anyone out there that has a midi preset for the TD20 that has the hi-hat tweaked really well, or has some tips on what works for tweaking? I’ve been messing around for days, and I still can’t seem to clean up the hi-hat open/close hits. (ie. If I hit the hi-hat with it partially opened, then close it quickly, having the sound cut off cleanly, like it would in real life.)

Also, if anyone has made changes on the TD20 module itself that seem to help getting it more realistic, I would be interested in hearing what you did there as well.

thanks!

Topic

[Joe]

Follow the method in the post below, and you should be able to get the HiHat mapping for your hardware set up well:

http://www.toontrack.com/forum/fb.aspx?m=59160

[robertgeorge]

Did this to the letter and couldn’t get it to work. The TD-20 VH-12 only uses 3 notes not 5 so when you try to map the closed bow and edge it puts out the same 2 notes and S2 want 2 different notes. Hope someone can straighten out what you need to do differently to get the TD-20/VH-12 to work cause I’ve tried it 10 times and no go.

www.robertgeorge.net

[Rogue]

The TD-20 VH-12 only uses 3 notes not 5

that’s not correct, there are 2 in the closed position and 2 in the open position + pedal. If that’s not the case then you have used a wrong type of cable to connect the VH-12 to the module.

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[robertgeorge]

Thanks very much for your help Rouge and I’m really trying to solve this problem for me and others and do not mean to disagree BUT the TD-20/VH-12 puts out the same 2 notes D0 and A#1 (and only those 2) regardless if it is open or closed. It uses CC4 to tell the TD-20 if it is open or closed but uses only those 2 notes for the bow/edge. I have both tip/ring/sleeve cables connected and it’s working perfectly. I’m looking right at the midi notes on my screen. When I record ALL the different hi hat articulations from the TD-20/VH-12 and play them back FROM my TD-20 they ALL play back perfectly (bow,edge, closed and open pedal) So I know it’s putting out (and receiving) the correct midi data. When I try and follow your directions (thanks for the detail) and get to trying to map the closed edge and tip – S2 will not take a second instance of those same 2 note numbers D0 and A#1) I guess Roland changed this in the TD-20. (do you have a TD-20/VH-12 to test this?) Hopefully is shedding some light on the problem.

www.robertgeorge.net

[rentadrummer]

ORIGINAL: robertgeorge

Thanks very much for your help Rouge and I’m really trying to solve this problem for me and others and do not mean to disagree BUT the TD-20/VH-12 puts out the same 2 notes D0 and A#1 (and only those 2) regardless if it is open or closed. It uses CC4 to tell the TD-20 if it is open or closed but uses only those 2 notes for the bow/edge. I have both tip/ring/sleeve cables connected and it’s working perfectly. I’m looking right at the midi notes on my screen. When I record ALL the different hi hat articulations from the TD-20/VH-12 and play them back FROM my TD-20 they ALL play back perfectly (bow,edge, closed and open pedal) So I know it’s putting out (and receiving) the correct midi data. When I try and follow your directions (thanks for the detail) and get to trying to map the closed edge and tip – S2 will not take a second instance of those same 2 note numbers D0 and A#1) I guess Roland changed this in the TD-20. (do you have a TD-20/VH-12 to test this?) Hopefully is shedding some light on the problem.

I’m not sure if you’re talking about the same thing, but on the TD-20 if you press Instrument, Control, Hi Hat – it should show you a window with the hi hat mapping, and there are 5 MIDI notes shown. There should be edge- open/closed, bow – open/closed and pedal.

Also, make sure that you remove all of the MIDI notes from the articulations in the Key Map window in S2 before you start mapping. Some of the articulations contain more than one note, which can be seen if you right click on the Key Map window. You need to click Remove 2 or 3 times for all the notes to be deleted. After mapping, even though it appears that some of the articulations for the open/closed sound are the same, if you right click you should see a second note.

[plink]

Thanks JoeKing… this will work for now. I still really want to encourage you guys to work on the blending of the different hi-hat articulations, and getting specific presets for each edrum module. (specifically the TD20)
 
I haven’t been able to properly map the ‘mutes’ for the crashes, using the vst plugin version of S2.

[John]

I haven’t been able to properly map the ‘mutes’ for the crashes, using the vst plugin version of S2.

Why would you map mutes when you can use Aftertouch with the Envelope?

Best Regards,
John

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[robertgeorge]

Ok folks it turns out that the TD-20 can put out 5 notes for all the HH articulations BUT it doesn’t do it as part of the factory default. And if you change it and record midi from the TD-20 and try and play back WITH the TD-20 it won’t give you any closed edge sounds. The TD-20 HH works best when receiving midi with just two notes.

Anyway to change this to work with external Romplers HH you have to go to Setup – Midi – HH Note # Border and change the value to something between 80-100 for it to put out separate open and closed notes for tip and edge. So now I was able to map the other two notes to the articulations and expected things to sound and work better. Still doesn’t sound or work well. The closed tip sounds VERY much like the edge on open and closed and there’s still errant open pedal sounds. And it’s nearly impossible too get a tight closed sound and dynamics even after adjusting the sensitivity for the HH pad.

Any other suggestions guys?

The rest of S2 is great and I’m loving it – just hope the HH gets more attention.

www.robertgeorge.net

[John]

I use a Hart Pro kit HH and it is set up like a VH-12. I find that I personally get better results if I lower the Offset somewhere -5ish and then I select the HatsCtrl arrticulation in S2.0, tick ‘EDIT ARTICULATION ONLY’ and play a bit with the soft and hard Velocity Ctrl values.
IIRC, around 115 on hard. I can’t remember now if I changed the low value but these values would depend on your specific hardware and playing style. I’m not really a drummer, I just wish I were (and have expensive toys).

Best Regards,
John

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[robertgeorge]

Got Joe Kings project file which included his midi set up. i think my Hi Hat is working as well as anyones (fair to midland IMHO) but want to be sure. Ij you folks would be so kind to please LISTEN to the sound of the open edge verses bow and tell me if you hear any difference. It sounds like the same sample to me. The only time I hear a tip sound at all is when the hi hat is closed. The rest sounds like edge sounds. This is NOT how a hi hat plays/sounds. You should be able to get open TIP sounds right? Can anyone hear the difference between the open edge and tip when they play?

Thanks guys

www.robertgeorge.net

[plink]

ORIGINAL: Rammelt

I haven’t been able to properly map the ‘mutes’ for the crashes, using the vst plugin version of S2.

Why would you map mutes when you can use Aftertouch with the Envelope?

Best Regards,
John

 
John, A tried using the aftertouch with the envelopes. It does not work in the plugin version of S2. And I did get it to work fine in Toontrack Solo.
 
So I’m not sure if I have to setup the cymbol ‘mute’ articulation to something…. or what?
 
Also, speaking of cymbols… is there not ‘edge’ hit articulations for each one?

[plink]

ORIGINAL: robertgeorge

Got Joe Kings project file which included his midi set up. i think my Hi Hat is working as well as anyones (fair to midland IMHO) but want to be sure. Ij you folks would be so kind to please LISTEN to the sound of the open edge verses bow and tell me if you hear any difference. It sounds like the same sample to me. The only time I hear a tip sound at all is when the hi hat is closed. The rest sounds like edge sounds. This is NOT how a hi hat plays/sounds. You should be able to get open TIP sounds right? Can anyone hear the difference between the open edge and tip when they play?

Thanks guys

 
I’m having very similair issues as well… the hi-hat does not seem to be playing all my articulations. (with td-20 module and VH12)  I’ve done the joe king setup, and this cleaned it a bit… but i still seem to be missing the articulations you are describing. (unless its just a very subtle difference.)

[John]

It does not work in the plugin version of S2

Of course it does.
You do have to set it up though; enable it and set the hold/release to something appropriate.
Make sure your host does not filter out Aftertouch.

BTW, please take the time to fill in your system details in your profile and/or signature.

Best Regards,
John

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Joe]

ORIGINAL: robertgeorge

Got Joe Kings project file which included his midi set up. i think my Hi Hat is working as well as anyones (fair to midland IMHO) but want to be sure. Ij you folks would be so kind to please LISTEN to the sound of the open edge verses bow and tell me if you hear any difference. It sounds like the same sample to me. The only time I hear a tip sound at all is when the hi hat is closed. The rest sounds like edge sounds. This is NOT how a hi hat plays/sounds. You should be able to get open TIP sounds right? Can anyone hear the difference between the open edge and tip when they play?

Thanks guys

That is correct, there are no separate Bow/Edge articulations for the Open positions in the current library/engine.  If you preview each articulation one at a time (using the velocity sensitive pad in the Instrument pane), those are all the sounds possible from your currently selected HiHat.  Mapping up your physical HiHat will not result in any sounds that aren’t listed in the articulation set.

There is one constant in the Superior line since I’ve been a user … each revisions brings more articulations.  More articulations also mean more space requirements and more loaded samples (as every articulation then needs a pool of samples to prevent artificial repetitiveness during play).  So, there is a balance.  Personally, I think the HiHat works great … but you are right, it does not have open Tip sounds at this time.

[livedrumstudio]

Hi Guys,

I have followed Joe King setup for the VH-11 on a TD-10, but I am using a TD20 and a VH-12. The setting Joe has givin us has put me in the ball park but I am missing my tight hi hat sounds. Does anyone have the full setup for the TD20 and VH-12, I have searched the forum but have found nothing.

Cheers,
Chris

[Author]

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