Midi packs mapping

[John Shepherd]

I’m looking at multiple midi packs and need mapping info for them. I hope to be able to use these with a fusion of the Gen16 cymbal packs. Knowing the midi notes used for hats and cymbals, and if all Toontrack midi is the same from pack to pack will help. Thanks, Shep

SHEP-i7 8606 @ 5ghz -32GB DDR4-Windows10 1909-UAD Twin USB + Duo Card-SD3 -Slate Drums 5.5-Kontakt 5- Spectrasonics (everything)-AxeFx Ultra-STL Tonehub

Topic

[John Shepherd]

I have since purchased 4 midi packs – I still need to know the note assignments for hats and cymbals – anyone, please? Is there a complete map used for these packs somewhere I can download? The clips in Sonar show hats playing on 62 and 63 ( why not the 22,26,42,46 I thought all the open/closed tip/shank notes are?), while SD2 has no notes on these keys, but has seq soft and seq hard on 64 and 65. Yet I hear hats playing?!? Also, I don’t see any continuous cc4 in these files for hihat opening/closing, and i tried the ‘show all controlllers option in Sonar 8.5.3… Thanks again – Shep

BTW – Why is there no support at TT main site for these midi packs since they show up in my account like SD2?

SHEP-i7 8606 @ 5ghz -32GB DDR4-Windows10 1909-UAD Twin USB + Duo Card-SD3 -Slate Drums 5.5-Kontakt 5- Spectrasonics (everything)-AxeFx Ultra-STL Tonehub

[godprobe]

Of the packs I’ve looked at, most of the hits fall within the standard General MIDI Drums range…
http://www.midi.org/techspecs/gm1sound.php#percussion
…using notes 35 through 59 for roughly the same kit pieces as GM Drums states (depending on the library that’s actually loaded).
Notes 60, 62, and 63 are also commonly used in the packs for various Hi-hat hits, since GM Drums usually doesn’t cover all of the articulations provided in the Toontrack sound libraries.
Similarly, there are additional hits below note 35, mostly for extra cymbal hits (particularly notes 27-32) and more hats (particularly notes 11-26).  And there are a couple of outliers above 63 as well (usually extra tom hits).

I know it’s not a “here’s the mapping! :)” answer, but hopefully it helps.

WinXP | Fireface 800 | Variax | Axe-Fx | Toontrack | Komplete | Reaper http://www.godprobe.com/projects/notemaps/

[John Shepherd]

Thanks much for the info you provided. I’d be pretty surprised if there’s not a complete map in existence. Still hoping there is one out there. As I’m changing notes in another player to match the notes in the packs, I need to know what note matches each articulation exactly. The note correspondence (page 39 of the manual) does not give all the notes, nor are they accurate to what notes are sounding.

Is every pack identical in their map?

Still curious about cc4 info as well…

SHEP-i7 8606 @ 5ghz -32GB DDR4-Windows10 1909-UAD Twin USB + Duo Card-SD3 -Slate Drums 5.5-Kontakt 5- Spectrasonics (everything)-AxeFx Ultra-STL Tonehub

[godprobe]

As far as I know, the guest drummer MIDI from the Drumkit From Hell EZX is the only Toontrack MIDI that has CC4 data in it.
I assume that’s because it was overlooked (as well as a couple other CCs in that MIDI that don’t usually correspond to anything in EZDrummer/Superior Drummer), and the exclusion of CC4 data from later MIDI is probably just to ensure compatibility and that there’s no… wonkiness? 😛 …with other hosts/plugins (never know what a CC4 might trigger somewhere else and it wouldn’t be an obvious place to check when weird behavior crops up).

If you mean whether the MIDI packs themselves have identical mapping, I don’t think they do (the metal packs, for example, use the extra kick much more often), but they definitely seem to follow the general rules from my prior post.
If you mean whether the sound libraries have identical mapping, again… they follow general rules, but they aren’t exactly the same — here’s a spreadsheet I maintain that outlines the default sound library mapping…
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AsWMEXuWvqSIdFBaNnBhTFBBZXJZb1F0UThzVXhibmc&hl=en
…which might also give you some clues on why the MIDI packs are generalized and not necessarily specific articulations.

P.S. good to see yet another Axe-Fx user here 😉

WinXP | Fireface 800 | Variax | Axe-Fx | Toontrack | Komplete | Reaper http://www.godprobe.com/projects/notemaps/

1

Thanked by: vajranatha

[John Shepherd]

How do hats open, close, and play all variations w/o cc4 data? I play a open hat variation .mid from any of the 4 packs I bought, and I only get closed sounds.
If this is the case for the $100+ I spent for 4 packs – I think I want ( and should be able to get) my $ back. I bought these hoping to get lots of great hat chops I could use in my own grooves out of them, as well as the grooves themselves for kits.

What I mean by identical mapping is this – If all the softsynths aren’t working from the same mapping – why wouldn’t they? Wasn’t the same kit used to record the packs? Crossgrading would be a whole bunch more setup – i.e. – waste of time IMO, especially if the hats are waht’s wrong. Why wouldnt TT use the same mapping of notes for their midi packs – that way, once you set up your soft synth for 1 midi pack, it works for all midi packs.
Frustrated to say the least, hoping to get this sorted. – Shep
PS – Another happy Axe fx user at that…

SHEP-i7 8606 @ 5ghz -32GB DDR4-Windows10 1909-UAD Twin USB + Duo Card-SD3 -Slate Drums 5.5-Kontakt 5- Spectrasonics (everything)-AxeFx Ultra-STL Tonehub

[Scott]

How do hats open, close, and play all variations w/o cc4 data? I play a open hat variation .mid from any of the 4 packs I bought, and I only get closed sounds.
If this is the case for the $100+ I spent for 4 packs – I think I want ( and should be able to get) my $ back.

If you’re using the default MIDI mapping in S2, the open hat sounds are mapped as specified in the mapping layout .pdf for whatever sound library you have loaded. You can see this mapping in the ‘?’->N.Y. Avatar (for example)->MIDI Layout. For example, Hats Open (GM) is mapped to note 46.

All Toontrack MIDI packs are designed to be used with Toontrack samplers (EZD/S2/Beatstation) and are mapped to work optimally with those samplers. They are GM mapped for the most part but as Toontrack sample libraries are more highly articulated than the standard GM mapping, there will be slightly less compatibility with samplers other than Toontrack’s own.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[John Shepherd]

Thanks for the reply, Scott. This doesn’t tell me why cc4 data isn’t in the .mid files. How does SD2 know how to play variations w/ no cc4 data? I’d think it would just play the individual struck note. I’m hoping to move my hihat and cymbal notes in my softsynth to the midi pack played notes, preferably once for all packs. W/ the cc4 data in place, it would show me what value ranges trigger each articulation, no? Please advise. Thanks – Shep

SHEP-i7 8606 @ 5ghz -32GB DDR4-Windows10 1909-UAD Twin USB + Duo Card-SD3 -Slate Drums 5.5-Kontakt 5- Spectrasonics (everything)-AxeFx Ultra-STL Tonehub

[Scott]

How does SD2 know how to play variations w/ no cc4 data?

Each level of ‘Open’ hi hat has it’s own MIDI note assignment. For example, by default the Open 1 sound is mapped to note 24, Open 2 is mapped to note 25, etc. The CC4 data doesn’t need to come in to play to trigger those levels of openness.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[John Shepherd]

I thought these were played by a drummer. How can you have but 4 notes output from say, a Roland VH-11 (my hat) – 22,26,42 and 46 – and get all the articulations available? I always see cc4 info to do that in other grooves. Please explain – Thanks!

SHEP-i7 8606 @ 5ghz -32GB DDR4-Windows10 1909-UAD Twin USB + Duo Card-SD3 -Slate Drums 5.5-Kontakt 5- Spectrasonics (everything)-AxeFx Ultra-STL Tonehub

[John Shepherd]

If this is velocity based, what are the zones from articulation to articulation? I may be able to get BFD Eco DV to change to velocity levels…

SHEP-i7 8606 @ 5ghz -32GB DDR4-Windows10 1909-UAD Twin USB + Duo Card-SD3 -Slate Drums 5.5-Kontakt 5- Spectrasonics (everything)-AxeFx Ultra-STL Tonehub

[DCrules]

Hello – I sure hope someone here can help – I’ve just installed SD2 and I do not see any grooves in the groove folder. I can insert SD on a track and can hear it play but the grooves are not in the groove library. Thanks.

Pro Tools LE 8 / Leopard 10.5.8 / Eleven Rack

[John]

ORIGINAL: jshep0102

I thought these were played by a drummer. How can you have but 4 notes output from say, a Roland VH-11 (my hat) – 22,26,42 and 46 – and get all the articulations available? I always see cc4 info to do that in other grooves. Please explain – Thanks!

Yes,

the grooves are played by drummers. Normally when triggering from an e-drum device, the hihat pad zones map to certain Trig articulations in Superior 2; ‘hatsTrig’, ‘hatsTipTrig’ (some times ‘hatsBellTrig’) and ‘Closed Pedal’. The CC4 foot controller data is mapped to ‘HatsCtrl’ and determines the level of openness and the Superior 2 engine changes and transmutes between samples accordingly.
Now, the engine has to be able to work without using CC4 (or CC1) controllers, right? So all samples are there for individual access from the keyboard layout as well.
Toontrack has a conversion engine for transforming those live performances with the CC4 controller data and the Trig notes into the separate articulations.
Not all environments/users see it optimal to have CC4 data in their MIDI libraries.

I hope this explains.

BR,
John

John Rammelt - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[John Shepherd]

That makes it clear, John. I knew it wasn’t possible to record these grooves exactly as they are sold w/ just 4 notes being sent. Now if I knew which note plays which articulation, I could set my Eco DV up to respond in like manner. Is there a standard of notes the articulations are set to in the ‘conversion’? Please adise, and thanks guys for your support!! – Shep

SHEP-i7 8606 @ 5ghz -32GB DDR4-Windows10 1909-UAD Twin USB + Duo Card-SD3 -Slate Drums 5.5-Kontakt 5- Spectrasonics (everything)-AxeFx Ultra-STL Tonehub

[Scott]

Now if I knew which note plays which articulation…

Each sound library has a pdf MIDI note layout that shows what note triggers which articulation. Click the ‘?’ in the S2 interface and select the library in question.

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Metallion]

Hi… i have a similar problem/doubt … i wrote already half na hour ago about my doubts. If someone could help there..
But the main doubt is… how can i calibrate the CC4 levels to each dynamic? i would like to attribute cc4 not pressed to a “open 4” for example and cc4 between 0 and 40 to “open 2” ..etc….is that possible?
Because ..with my Yamaha DTXtreme IV, dont listen various nuances of the hi hat well… if i have 4 notes (pad center + pad edge + pedal close and pad center + pedal close and pad edge)…
It seems unnatural…
I have a Alesis Real Hi Hat pedal too and it has more CC4 values…more sensible. If i could make regions in CC4 mode…it would be excelent.

[Author]

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