MojaveI own everything Toontrack makes. I have every library and in all these super cool products, I am yet to find one detail. What “Key” are the libraries and kits tuned to? Especially the Kick and snare. I will run a kick and snare in Melodyne and see if I can get a tuning read that way. I was also thinking of Flex time stretching say a kick drum and drag it out long enough to keep the pitch on so a tuner could read it in logic.
Still, there must be a set tuning and standard? I use the Massive Ludwig a great deal and that 26″ Slingerland kick is really big and deep. Not sure but I think I am getting G# off the tuner. It can’t be trusted since the tuner bounces around to much and I don’t know if its correct.
Any tips would be appreciated. Someone has know or the software might offer this up, just not sure where.
Recent Demo I am working up.
Victor Mason
Mojave Desert
Apple Valley CA
jbranerI would say – just use your ears (like with real drums).
Drums are not “pitched” instruments per se – so I’d be surprised if any software is going to give you an accurate pitch of a drum sound.
John Braner
http://johnbraner.bandcamp.com
http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
and all the major streaming/download sites.
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Reaper 7 x64 (latest version), Windows 11 Pro 64 bit, AMD Ryzen 3950x, 32GB RAM, MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk Wifi mobo (not using wifi though), NVIDIA GEForce GT710 video card, MOTU Ultralite AVB audio interface
Joel MerrimanI disagree. Many drums are tuned in 5ths or something so the toms are in an interval. Many professional recordings go to the length of tuning the drums to match the key of the song, within the limits of the drum of course.
godprobe Good question.
To at least go much of the way towards finding out, I added the ReaEQ effect in REAPER onto a track with one kit piece soloed on it.
Here’s a screenshot of trying to find the pitch of the default Racktom 1 on the Avatar kit.
http://www.godprobe.com/temp/Tom1PitchEstimation.jpg (full REAPER image)
It might fall somewhere closer to D# or even C, but using a notch filter around that frequency with a narrow Q/Bandwidth seemed to get rid of the majority of the dominant pitch of the tom.
Happily, ReaEQ gives the note pitch as well as the frequency so you don’t have to look somewhere else for the conversion.
I used bounced wav files, in case I needed to look at them in a wave editor, but I don’t think that was necessary in this case.
WinXP | Fireface 800 | Variax | Axe-Fx | Toontrack | Komplete | Reaper http://www.godprobe.com/projects/notemaps/
jbranerI disagree. Many drums are tuned in 5ths or something so the toms are in an interval. Many professional recordings go to the length of tuning the drums to match the key of the song,
Hi Omni – I agree with you – but what was trying to say is that they just use their ears. They don’t get out a guitar tuner to tune the drums 😉
I’m surprised that ReaEQ could pull a pitch out so accurately though.
I would stand by my belief that there is a lot more in a drum “tone” than a “base” pitch with it’s overtones – so it’s not going to be easy to get an “official” “note” for a given drum. Also – if you are in the key of C for example – what would you be tuning your drum to? C? G? I think you must just have to do it by ear – no?
Anyway, I’m not trying to start an argument. I’m just interested…. 😉
John Braner
http://johnbraner.bandcamp.com
http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
and all the major streaming/download sites.
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Reaper 7 x64 (latest version), Windows 11 Pro 64 bit, AMD Ryzen 3950x, 32GB RAM, MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk Wifi mobo (not using wifi though), NVIDIA GEForce GT710 video card, MOTU Ultralite AVB audio interface
Olof Westman The overtones of a circular membrane are not harmonic. This
is why a drum is perceived as atonal compared to a string.
This also means that the usual words and concepts used
to discuss tonal instruments may cause confusion if used to
discuss drums.
/Olof W
Olof Westman - Toontrack
Coder
NathanORIGINAL: vincenizzzle
^^what he said. drums are percussive not tonal…
Heh,try telling a timpanist that 😉
They do have a tonal element, and people do tune that tonal element in interval such as fifths.
Remember also here jbraner, that godprobe is not letting ReaEQ find the note, he’s just using it as a tool along with his ears, to isolate one dominant tone. The ReaEQ plugin just happens to display the chromatic note as well as the frequency at the centre of any filter you happen to be waving around.
With drums, the overtones aren’t always interval harmonics; there are obviously tonal properties, otherwise a tom set couldn’t be tuned from “high” to “low”, but there can be be difficulty in distinguishing the dominant tone and with imperfectly (unevenly) tuned heads, the tone(s) will change with time after the hit. This is why drums are called percussive rather than tonal.
Hope this is helpful.
SD2.3, NYII, C&V, MC, MF, ED, Latin Perc, Twisted, Pop, N1H, Electronic, Classic, Funkmasters, Rock Solid, Blues, Indie-Folk.
WhittenORIGINAL: OmniFace
Many professional recordings go to the length of tuning the drums to match the key of the song, within the limits of the drum of course.
Actually it’s rare.
Some drummers do, but most don’t.
If your song changes key at some point, the drums no longer work for example.
What about a live show when you are playing 10 to 20 songs all in different keys?
I agree with the first advice you were given, use your ears, if it sounds right, it is right.
With very long resonant bass drums and toms you would need to take care making sure they don’t clash with the harmony of your song, but with most drums the actual tonal pitch is ignored – and that’s from experience.
Ashton Page Hi Folks,
WHAT IS PITCH?
First of all – forget the harmonics. You do not perceive harmonics as pitch, you perceive harmonics as timbre. That’s why a flute sounds different than an oboe even when they play the same note (pitch)
What you hear as the pitch is the fundamental frequency & only the fundamental frequency.
TUNING DRUMS:
The proper way to tune a drum-set is to match the tuning of the head to the resonant frequency of the shell. I’ve watched drummers bang on the shell to get the fundamental frequency of the wood shell (This is called ‘tap tuning’) when tuning their sets. Good drummers will even match the pitch of their sticks and then sort them in matched pairs. Yeah, even a drumstick has a pitch – pretty crazy, huh? When tuning a kit you tune each lug around the rim until the head sounds at the same frequency at every location; all the way around the rim…. So YES, drums do have pitch, they are NOT atonal. That’s why you’ll see drummers tap-tap-tap the head near the rim, tune that lug, then move the stick over to the adjacent tuning lug and tap-tap-tap… constantly making adjustments with the tuning key until there is equal tension (and therefore equal pitch) throughout the entire area of the drum head.
DOES PITCH MATTER?
The pitch of the drums can absolutely, positively clash with the song. Ever do a mix that sounds muddy and you can’t pin-point what the problem is? To hear what I am talking about, play a C (note, not chord) and an F# note simultaneously, especially with a bass guitar and a floor tom – clash!
WHAT INTERVALS (different notes) ARE USED IN STANDARD TUNING?
Usually, the drums are tuned in fourths (to the old tune “my dog had fleas”) with each word increasing up a 4th – for example: C – F – Bb – Eb. This is a ‘quartal’ chord – Google it if you need more info. An easy way to remember what a 4th interval sounds like is to sing the first two words of “Here comes the bride”.
The best and quickest way (for me) to determine the tuning of a drum is to select an Acoustic Bass patch on the keyboard and tap on the floor tom while running UP the chromatic scale on the keyboard until the notes match. It helps to play the keyboard in the same register (octave) as the drum whose pitch you are trying to determine.
SUPERIOR TUNINGS AND PITCHES:
The stock Custom and Vintage SDX kit is tuned thusly:
Bass Drum – Bb
Floor Tom – Eb (this is a perfect 4th above the kick)
Low Rack Tom – Ab (another perfect 4th)
Mid Rack Tom – Db (as above)
Hi Rack Tom – Gb (as above)
Snare Bb (this is a major 3rd above the Hi Ride Tom – which places it 2 octaves above the kick).
What’s a ‘perfect’ 4th? In music intervals – 4ths can be NEITHER major nor minor (unlike a 3rd which can be either major or minor) therefore, the 4th interval belongs to a set of intervals called ‘perfect’.
BOTTOM LINE:
You do NOT need to tune the drums to be in the same the key as the song. You only need to watch out for tunings that clash – e.g. flatted 5th. Because even if you could tune the kit to each and every song, what happens when the band goes to the chorus (from A chord up to E chord) or when the band modulates the entire song up ½ step for the last verse? Are you going to re-tune the kit to match the verse then re-tune it again to match the chorus? Of course not. Like I said, you only need to watch out for dissonant tuning between the drums and the other instruments.
Juicy Good one Ashton & Welcome
!
Sure live is more Set & Forget as Whitten mentioned….
I was backstage/soundcheck at a Supertramp concert in NZ when i was 11 and was amazed they spent 3-4 hours making sure the kick drum was “pitched” lower than the low Open E on the Bass Guitar.Im sure they were going for a D and not a E flat but maybe not.
One trick on tricky drums is to use the pitch knob on the individual drum and tune it up an octave quickly to help identify the fundamental or root note as it seems easier to identify when higher and just moving it around.
We are lucky to have this feature ,say if it sounds like a D note up an octave ,when you come down you can more easily hear it settle,or not as an octave lower version of that D note. Some drums are really difficult as the threads above would suggest.
In a Studio song per song scenario i believe it is good to experiment with this if you have time.
Snare drums especially can be made more musical when you identify the root note or tone,usually not far from where its already tuned ,you may find the 7th .Minor 3rd,5th or tonic note this gives you major differences in feeling or the way the snare blends or sticks out for the majority of your song .
Experimenting is valid sometime you may come back to the snare being off pitch as it “works” other times that re tuning is vital to it working best and being more personalised.
Whitten In agreement –
Yes, it’s good to experiment.
Yes, some drummers tune their drums to the key of the song.
Yes, some tunings can obviously clash with the rest of the music.
In disagreement –
Most studio drummers tune their drums to the key of the song. They just don’t.
Most kits are tuned to 4ths. No, there are no rules. Most drummers tune their kits to many different intervals to suit their own needs and taste.
Most drummers select sticks that are in tune. No, most drummers just pick up a pair of sticks and play.
Bottom line, there can be real benefits in carefully tuning the pitches of your drums. To claim most drummers, or most studio drummers tune to specific pitches all the time is just incorrect.
Butter BunsORIGINAL: planetnine
ORIGINAL: vincenizzzle
^^what he said. drums are percussive not tonal…
Heh,try telling a timpanist that 😉
They do have a tonal element, and people do tune that tonal element in interval such as fifths.
Remember also here jbraner, that godprobe is not letting ReaEQ find the note, he’s just using it as a tool along with his ears, to isolate one dominant tone. The ReaEQ plugin just happens to display the chromatic note as well as the frequency at the centre of any filter you happen to be waving around.
With drums, the overtones aren’t always interval harmonics; there are obviously tonal properties, otherwise a tom set couldn’t be tuned from “high” to “low”, but there can be be difficulty in distinguishing the dominant tone and with imperfectly (unevenly) tuned heads, the tone(s) will change with time after the hit. This is why drums are called percussive rather than tonal.
Hope this is helpful.
timpanist? really? those arent conventional in any sense. the key word here would be context.
i was gonna go on a rant but everything that needs to be said about this topic has been said.
soooo a conventional drum set is atonal and percussive
the end.
Ron Wilson Hi Guys,
Apologies that I was not more specific in my previous post. I can only go by the experience I have had as a player and engineer. Every musician is different. I certainly agree that ‘most’ drummers do tune their kits willy-nilly, I will also stand by my statement that ‘good’ drummers (more specifically the best drummers I ever worked with) did tune the kits to the resonant frequency of the shells……. much to my dismay as a studio owner because they counted hours of tinkering with their kits as ‘set-up time’.
Do ‘most’ drummers bother to do that? Nope
While Vic Firth sells drumsticks in ‘pitched matched pairs’ the fact is that ‘most’ drummers I’ve worked with (live) use the “all you can grab for $10” sticks, because they’re just going to break them anyway. And that pretty much says it all, really. I know one drummer who actually boasts that he has broken over 20 Zildjian cymbals. Frankly, that’s exactly the type of drummer that I do NOT want playing on my CD’s.
Here’s my point saying this: I don’t want to emulate ‘most’ drummers – I want to emulate the crème del-la crème.
Best,
Ashton
Whitten Maybe we need to talk about professional drummers, rather than ‘most drummers’ and ‘good drummers’.
I don’t know any professional drummers who use $10 sticks live. Most professional drummers have a stick endorsement anyway.
I use Vic Firth sticks and have never thought for a moment about the pitch matching. There are a lot of strategies music companies use to market their product. IMO pitch matching and shell pitch are two.
What do you expect me to do if I break one stick in a pitch matched pair? Throw the other unbroken stick away?
I agree with Bob Gatzen (drum design guru), that when you are tuning a drum there are certainly two or three zones when the drum resonates more purely. I often aim for one of those, but it really isn’t note specific.
As I wrote many moons ago in this thread….. tuning your drums to specific pitches is a very valid technique. Claiming most people do it and that you are not a ‘good’ drummer if you don’t is wildly exaggerated in my experience.
The opposite of tuning your drums to specific resonant frequencies is of course not ‘willy nilly’, it’s just a different drum tuning technique. If the drums sound good, and most professional players drums do sound good, or they would not be professional players for long. In my experience, professional players have their drums set up and tuned correctly at the alloted start time for the session. So I’m a little mystified that the players Ashtonpage’ cites as the ‘creme de la creme’ are also wasting precious recording time tuning a drum that should have been tuned before the official session start time.
Anyway, based on his last post you can firmly put me down in the NOT good drummer category.
carrera4 my 2 cents after 35 years of playing .The style of music your are playing really sets the tone and pitch range .
rock on one hand traditionally is tuned to several low tonal ranges based on the diameter of the drum. ranges depending on the cut you want or the style of your fills
jazz on the other hand say a fusion style breathes with a quick and tight high pitch. and I 100% agree that the best sound for recording or any controlled recording environment
is to tune the kits to the resonant frequency of the shells and that is really the “key” they should be played.
Carrera4
Robert Mauro
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