DingoOk,
so I thought I’d post a short thread on this that anyone can contribute to. There’s a number of ways to get a big tone, here’s a couple tricks.
* Record your guitar part then double track it (record the same part again on another channel) Pan one hard left and the other hard right.
* Once you’ve recorded your guitar parts have a listen to which parts you want to sound super meaty. If you’ve recorded in say, standard tuning – you can tune your guitar down to C and play those parts in a lower octave and layer them underneath for extra body.
* Another thing you can do is record your parts with 1 amp setting then record your double track (or second guitar) with a totally different setting so there’s no conflicting sounds. If you want to get real fancy you could even use a different head & cab if you have them.
* Pitch pedals, setting them to an octave lower.
* Slight chorus effect makes guitars stand out.
* Short Delays 0 – 22ms
* Octave pedals – works really well playing single notes.
Hope some of that helps, as far as EQ & compression settings go just use your ears it all varys depending on what sound you’re going for.
Regards, Marcus.
redlogichttp://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html
Macmini 2019 3.2 GHz 6-Core i7, 32GB RAM, MacOS 10.15.2, LogicProX 10.4.8, FF400, UAD2 Satellite Octo
VOLiTiANThose all sound like last resorts to decently recorded takes in the first place.
Couple of questions..
1) What are you doing in the mix process when it comes to the bass/guitars octave down situation? How are they not conflicting as they’re in the same register if I understand your post correctly.
2) Why introduce chorus for a stereo effect, true it’s a no linear way of offsetting the audio but it does introduce inherent phase issues..
No offence meant here, but I would imagine the “proper” way to get a good guitar tone is.
1) perfecting left/right takes, understand what you’re doing, palm accents, harmonics, pick attack etc will inherently make things feel really tight and punchy.
2) Instead of adding a chorus effect, look up the “Haas” effect, basically create your stereo pair, then bus to a group track set with a pre-delay, you can then mix and eq the delayed sound to taste.
3) Work in the stereo field, slightly varying the EQ from left to right of each other tend to make the channels more pronounced, other techniques such as EQ’ing the bass out of the side freq’s can leave more room for lower/mid freq’s for the guitars.
4) Work with sidechaining the guitars, make them pump ever-so-slightly off the kick just give them more perceived flex and weight.
5) If you’re going to use stereo cab placement (which becomes great fun EQ’ing in the stereo fields and in the tone mind set much more fun as it has to all be done at once) try and take two cabs (again EQ’d very slightly different) and introduce like this..
-> left guitar -> cab 1 (panned hard left) & cab 2 (panned say 20-40% right)
-> right guitar -> cab 2 (panned hard right) & cab 2 (panned as above)
of course you can mix match, eq differently, pan to suit etc, but it offers more balance i feel.
6) Also quadtracking might be worth looking into, it can get really messy if not played tightly though.
7) pitch pedals and octave pedals are pretty much the same, work the bass more if you’re looking for a better locked in low end vibe, also depending on their processing the octav’d signal can often sound pretty pap.
8) Distortion is a natural compressor however cab impulses like to “wamp” a bit sometimes, normally freq’s around 400hz tend to be the offenders, a slight dip there tends to lend a bit of clarity whilst retaining depth.
Just my pocket full of change.
Regards
D.
www.myspace.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundclick.com/VOLiTiAN www.reverbnation.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundcloud.com/VOLiTiAN
DingoORIGINAL: VOLiTiAN
1) What are you doing in the mix process when it comes to the bass/guitars octave down situation? How are they not conflicting as they’re in the same register if I understand your post correctly.
It all depends on what’s being played and what space is been taken up, if there’s room for laying a lower octave then go for it. If not don’t bother. A bit like laying certain words with vocals to emphasize them.
ORIGINAL: VOLiTiAN
2) Why introduce chorus for a stereo effect, true it’s a no linear way of offsetting the audio but it does introduce inherent phase issues..
Why not? I think people get too caught up in the technical side of things especially with phase problems. If it sounds good use it, it’s not like the listener is going to be criticizing the mix for phase issues…
Chorus works well very lightly on tracks from time to time (especially lead guitar), i’m not saying to use it ALL the time. Just depends on the situation.
The guitar tone is as GOOD as the recording & amp to start with. Quad tracking is good but I think it’s a little excessive (if we’re talking 4 channels per guitar) , you can get a good tone just from 1 cab and head set up using 2 microphones hardly a need to double track the part with 2 microphones. But again, what ever works, works…
I’ve know people to use filters on the guitar panning one L40 and one R50. they sound terrible soloed but sound ace in the mix. Another thing I’ve come across is using a desser to take the harshness out the high end.
Generally I like to keep it simple with guitar tracks to get a thick tone. Use less distortion, a fair amount of compression and some slight EQ adjustments to get the bite and that’s it really…
Regards, Marcus.
VOLiTiAN“I think people get too caught up in the technical side of things especially with phase problems. If it sounds good use it, it’s not like the listener is going to be criticizing the mix for phase issues…”
Agreed to a certain extent (it’s not like the listener is going to know if it’s sounds like crap?), maybe I misunderstood, but surely to aid someone would be to yes, advise them of all techniques and ways of interpreting them, but also to help them understand that down the line as they progress and want to take their music further that these kinds of effects will inherently change the sound, such that it may make it difficult to mix etc. If I’m brutally honest, that kind of mentality does nothing but frustrate those who genuinely want to help others, those who choose not to read, have no advantage over those who can’t…..
Also, guitar tone is not as “GOOD” as the amp/cab to start with, it’s about the performance, re-amping is a very simple solution if you ever want to change the mix in the future, so tone almost becomes moot
Just for the sake of clarity, quad-tracking does mean to use 4 channels at once e.g. 2x guitar left 2x right.
Chorus used for lead guitar?, where stereo panning and volume automation are simple and introduce no new artifacts into the mix seems cleaner, but if I didn’t know that, would I be missing out? That’s effectively the argument you posed.
Anyway, a solid performance, a considered approach to the left right balance when recording left/right, a good understanding of what basic eq ranges will help you shape your tone, and good source of reference material, hopefully access to lots of different (not necessarily expensive) speaker setups, and of course a good preamp ideally make for a good tone. You can also aid the process by going down the re-amping route and whilst setting up the dry signal you can really enhance the tone that will be going to your amp, cleaning up the signal so you’re not amplifying any buzz etc….
Regards
D.
www.myspace.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundclick.com/VOLiTiAN www.reverbnation.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundcloud.com/VOLiTiAN
DingoNo, my attitude towards phase issues is: Although minor issues might crop up, unless it’s anything majorly obvious which is causing a real problem then YES you will have to address it. It’s not like a Major issue will rear it’s ugly head if you’re using a single microphone placed correctly. You just have to be more aware when quad tracking. Even so, as the old saying goes “if it’s not broke don’t fix it” it’s about the music at the end of the day and what you think sounds good. There are no rules as to how you should / shouldn’t do things. Only guidelines.
I don’t think I was putting an argument forward I was simply saying as a guitarist I find that using chorus in small amounts will make your lead guitar A) cut through the mix and B) sound cool! I wasn’t saying ” YES USE IT 100% of the time on your guitars”
It’s almost reading like you’re assuming that what I originally listed IS the definitive process you should go through to achieve a “heavy tone”…
“Also, guitar tone is not as “GOOD” as the amp/cab to start with, it’s about the performance, re-amping is a very simple solution if you ever want to change the mix in the future, so tone almost becomes moot “
– Yes, I’m talking tone not performance. The feel, tightness & dynamics are different from player to player and yes their control over the instrument effects the tone but not so much so that the average guitarist sound leaps an bounds apart from another using similar gear… it’s note choice placement & dynamics that distinguishes guitarists from one another, not tone. But, If you use bad mic placement, crap amps or just plain horrible amp settings then their performance will not translate across and become effectively moot anyway… Which was my point.
Regards, Marcus.
VOLiTiANOkay,
1) You’re right, there are no rules in music, but there is a “good practice”/sets of techniques that normally work together. If you’re looking to help people you don’t hold back the information.
2) Everything you do from the early source tone to the playing, the compressing EQ’ing etc etc is ALL going to add to the final mixdown, so yeah it might seem trivial at the early stages, but again why not educate people as to the potential pitfalls of what they themselves are introducing/adding to the mix. The further you progress with your music the more daunting the changes to be made can become.
3) If you want to get something to “cut” through a mix, then why use chorus to push it? It’s forcing the issue, rather than carving a neat little place for it in the mix, techniques such as subtractive eq’ing normally help.
Personally if you’re struggling to hear differences in players, and you feel that really doesn’t ad up to much in the overall sound, then great, I imagine ignorance is bliss, the performance comes first and then the tone, hence why re-amping solution removes the onus to be on the correct cab/pre/eq etc combination and shifts the requirement back to the musician to perform. You can foul up a great piece of music with the wrong tone, of course you can, but you sure as hell will have to work harder to polish a turd…
Regards
D.
www.myspace.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundclick.com/VOLiTiAN www.reverbnation.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundcloud.com/VOLiTiAN
DingoORIGINAL: VOLiTiAN
Okay,
1) You’re right, there are no rules in music, but there is a “good practice”/sets of techniques that normally work together. If you’re looking to help people you don’t hold back the information.
I wasn’t holding back any information I simply listed a few basic tips. The point of this thread is for people to add to the list….
ORIGINAL: VOLiTiAN
2) Everything you do from the early source tone to the playing, the compressing EQ’ing etc etc is ALL going to add to the final mixdown, so yeah it might seem trivial at the early stages, but again why not educate people as to the potential pitfalls of what they themselves are introducing/adding to the mix. The further you progress with your music the more daunting the changes to be made can become.
I honestly can’t see what you’re banging on about? I simply listed a few very basic tips in which you could use to thicken it up or to make a single guitar sound bigger. I didnt list them as a 1, 2, 3 process. The point of this thread is for people to add content. I’m not “educating people into potential pitfalls” That’s insulting more than anything, you’re just trying to nit pick at things because you fail to understand me, you think everything I listed IS the definitive process of how you should get the heavy tone, it’s just a list of different techniques & tricks.
Why don’t you do a post on phase issues, instead of “holding back information”. I bet there’ll be people reading not even knowing what phase issues are or how they become apparent or how you fix them. You seem knowledgeable enough, why not share it.
ORIGINAL: VOLiTiAN
3) If you want to get something to “cut” through a mix, then why use chorus to push it? It’s forcing the issue, rather than carving a neat little place for it in the mix, techniques such as subtractive eq’ing normally help.
Again, you’re trying to argue about nothing. As I mentioned previously Chorus does help a part stand out in the mix is you use it subtley. Whether or not you want to use it is up to you, it’s just an option!
Here’s a tip, mix all the levels to what you think they should be in your session, then listen to you’re mix as a whole and make notes on what you can and can’t hear. Plan out what occupies each frequency area, If you spot some problems then approach the EQ and see if slight tweaks will fix it. If you can’t fix it with EQ leave it, otherwise you’ll spend hours being counter productive.
Also, don’t just dive in, solo the guitar and add a bunch of EQ because it might sound good on it’s own but crap in conjunction with everything else! The only EQ I ever do on guitars is a low roll off and a slight presence boost or a cut around the low mids or high mids. It’s real easy to ruin a guitar sound with EQ especially if you’re a beginner.
Why not write a massive post about technical EQ, frequency ranges and instrument ranges, EQ types etc… ? You seem quick enough to keep arguing with me over nothing instead contributing to the thread and being informative!
ORIGINAL: VOLiTiAN
Personally if you’re struggling to hear differences in players, and you feel that really doesn’t ad up to much in the overall sound, then great, I imagine ignorance is bliss, the performance comes first and then the tone, hence why re-amping solution removes the onus to be on the correct cab/pre/eq etc combination and shifts the requirement back to the musician to perform. You can foul up a great piece of music with the wrong tone, of course you can, but you sure as hell will have to work harder to polish a turd…
We are on the same page but you’ve miss interpreted what I wrote. It does help to polish a turd if the tones good though 😛
Regards, Marcus.
DingoAlso, lets not forget the Genre of music you’re recording also affects how you approach things.
Regards, Marcus.
VOLiTiANORIGINAL: Dingo
I wasn’t holding back any information I simply listed a few basic tips. The point of this thread is for people to add to the list….
You know what, my main gripe was that you initiated a thread intended to educate, great, I’m all for it, but it just confuses me, as the suggestions you put up (pitch shifters, doubling an octave down etc), to most would be the last ports of call, due to the fact they are often cheap work-arounds for a scale-able mix.
ORIGINAL: Dingo
I honestly can’t see what you’re banging on about? I simply listed a few very basic tips in which you could use to thicken it up or to make a single guitar sound bigger. I didnt list them as a 1, 2, 3 process. The point of this thread is for people to add content. I’m not “educating people into potential pitfalls” That’s insulting more than anything, you’re just trying to nit pick at things because you fail to understand me, you think everything I listed IS the definitive process of how you should get the heavy tone, it’s just a list of different techniques & tricks.
If you can’t see what Im “banging on about” Sir, you need to re-read and re-answer, I wasn’t saying you were *steering* people into trouble, rather you weren’t making people aware that some of those techniques have inherent foibles. I never said you implied this was the “only” process.
As for just nit-picking because I don’t understand you is pure nonsense, especially seeing as I’ve contributed to the thread.
ORIGINAL: Dingo
Why don’t you do a post on phase issues, instead of “holding back information”. I bet there’ll be people reading not even knowing what phase issues are or how they become apparent or how you fix them. You seem knowledgeable enough, why not share it.
Because this thread isn’t about phasing, and that topic can easily go past degree-level understanding. Besides, if you know what issues the effect is possibly causing, you can always look to at least begin to understand it’s not just about peaks of wave forms. Again you raised the technique, I just asked why?
ORIGINAL: Dingo
Again, you’re trying to argue about nothing. As I mentioned previously Chorus does help a part stand out in the mix is you use it subtley. Whether or not you want to use it is up to you, it’s just an option!
and again, I was just saying for the effect you are trying to produce there are probably better/cleaner ways of doing it esp if other tracks have chorus in the mix.
ORIGINAL: Dingo
Why not write a massive post about technical EQ, frequency ranges and instrument ranges, EQ types etc… ? You seem quick enough to keep arguing with me over nothing instead contributing to the thread and being informative!
http://www.recordingeq.com/Subscribe/tip/tascam.htm
Someone already did a nice little job of it for reference, but I guess you already have that link 🙂
ORIGINAL: Dingo
We are on the same page but you’ve miss interpreted what I wrote. It does help to polish a turd if the tones good though 😛
Yeah there’s nothing better than hearing a pristine sounding bag of shite 🙂
Regards
D.
www.myspace.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundclick.com/VOLiTiAN www.reverbnation.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundcloud.com/VOLiTiAN
Dingo(pitch shifters, doubling an octave down etc), to most would be the last ports of call, due to the fact they are often cheap work-arounds for a scale-able mix.
When I’m talking about using pitch shifters an octave down I hope you understand I don’t mean using it with 100% wet setting so you can only hear the lower octave and none of the original signal… What I should of noted in the original is you’re tuning will ultimately effect this method…
I wasn’t saying you were *steering* people into trouble, rather you weren’t making people aware that some of those techniques have inherent foibles. I never said you implied this was the “only” process.
Sorry, but the way you worded things didn’t read like that & again, you don’t need a degree in all the technical mum-bo-jumbo to get a good sound + if the guitarist wanted such effects on the track would you still say no? Because of the inherent foibles??
I was just saying for the effect you are trying to produce there are probably better/cleaner ways of doing it esp if other tracks have chorus in the mix.
Yes, and I never said there wasn’t any other better/clearer ways to do it, I was just listing a creative way in which you could.
Someone already did a nice little job of it for reference, but I guess you already have that link 🙂
I’ve spent more time natting at you than to even notice such a link –
Yeah there’s nothing better than hearing a pristine sounding bag of ****e 🙂
*chuckles*
Regards, Marcus.
throughthesegatesAll Very good comments for this Thread, But I just wanna put in my 2 cents. Im pretty new to recording and mixing and all that Producer stuff. If you want a good Heavy guitar tone here are some pointers,
1. Dont be a retard, and do your homework on Mic’ing a cab.
I dont mean no offense by this im just saying. I spent a couple years dealing with a plug in from Ik Multimedia called Amplitube which is a pretty good plug in for gutiars. Take the time to get to know the amp your dealing with get to know the cabinet and spend time with mic adjustments and different angles. I run a Line 6 Spider Valve Tube amp with the matching cabinet. I too have been wondering about that super heavy guitar tone.
2. Double tracking your guitars is a good effective way of achieving a good tone, but i recently found that if you quad track your rythm guitars so basically 2 tracks hard left and 2 tracks hard right, you get a massive tone. Just make sure you can play to a click track and that all 4 tracks are played exactly the same and on time.
3. Eq plays a big role on your guitar tone depending how you want it to sit in the mix.
Now I know im no professional but getting things done the right way helps you accomplish more in the long run. Do your homework and actually take the time with guitar sounds and mic placements and angles, even try 2 mic’s if at all possible. Im super happy with the tone that I am finding with my Through These Gates music which is my solo project.
Thanks for the Thread, This is a good topic and can go many ways with it.
MouseClickDrummerhigh pass filter before distortion. but the kind with a higher than center peak or spikes where its cutoff point is – is most ideal…. I think the axe FX has one.
prrAlways good practice to DI (pre effects for re-amping) as well as mic, re-amping has never ever let me down, you can spend time on the take then screw with the mic placement long after your playing motivation is gone…. Plus with limitless tracks, there is no reason not to.
BigJguitarif you quad track your rythm guitars so basically 2 tracks hard left and 2 tracks hard right, you get a massive tone. Just make sure you can play to a click track and that all 4 tracks are played exactly the same and on time.
My question about this is simple is it ok to just clone the first guitar take, or is it a must to actually record 4 tracks of the same thing with actual playing? Can you say use a quick delay and cab effects to create the desired sound?
http://www.reverbnation.com/jasonhanerfeld
VOLiTiANNo, you’re looking to have the tracks all playing the same part but recorded individually, i.e. no copy/paste situation, it’s the subtle variances that between channels that creates the “wall of sound” you can look into latency based plugins such a freehaas etc but these more often than not don’t really cut the mustard as they are a linear way of approaching the same sound.
Kind regards
D.
www.myspace.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundclick.com/VOLiTiAN www.reverbnation.com/VOLiTiAN www.soundcloud.com/VOLiTiAN
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