Best Practices for Mapping SD 2.1 and TD-20?

[sonartoontrack]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been learning a great deal about using superior with my td-20, and, using Joe K’s and granddaddy’s post’s, I’m just about there (thanks guys). My hi-hat is playing great!

But I do have a question regarding the whole mapping issue “philosophy” between superior and the td-20 (I have hart pro 6.4 pads, roland cymbals and a vh-11 hi hat).

Rather than use the learn feature to change midi/articulation mappings, I was wondering – would it not make more sense for me to simply edit a user kit on the td-20 and edit the midi notes being transmitted from the brain to match the sounds in superior? I could then save that as a user preset on the td-20 calling it superior drummer or something like that.  It seems that if you did this for one user kit in the td-20, you would never have to remap any other expansion packs, since that kit would be “superior drummer friendly”. Does that make sense?

The last few days I’ve been reading old posts and I remember reading one that Joe K had written, but can no longer find it….so if anyone can post any links I’d *really* appreciate it!

Thanks.

Phil

Topic

[rentadrummer]

That’s exactly what I did. I found it easier to start with a remapped kit, or two, on the TD-20, knowing that if I exchange S2 project files with any one else, the mapping will be consistent. It also makes it easier to experiment with new S2 projects, and have one less thing to worry about setting up each time.

[Damian Blunt]

Yep – same here

Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting

[sonartoontrack]

Great!  Glad to hear that’s what you guys endorse also. I’m going to do exactly that…wow, lots to learn but well worth it. http://www.toontrack.com/forum/javascript:void(addSmiley(‘body1′,%20’http://www.toontrack.com/forum/image/s1.gif’))

Thanks for your help! 

Phil

[Rogue]

well, there is a major disadvantage to changing note mapping in your module and that is that at that point only you know what it might be. GM Extended (Toontack mapping) was built from the ground up with V-Drums in mind so the benefit of remapping in hardware is, quite frankly, nil.

… well I can see no ‘pro’ for remapping internally from my standpoint, except perhaps the AUX inputs but besides that that seems hard work and asking for compatibility and exchange issues that are completely unnecessary. Not mentioning Hats playback issues.

Anyway, I just wanted to put forward what I see as detrimental rather than positive, as someone who knows all the tricks that we pull behind the curtain.

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[rentadrummer]

The only remapping that I found necessary was to change the snare rim to play the head sound, so both head and rim trigger the same sound, a couple of crashes because they were playing the same notes, and two toms since I like to use the 10″, 12″, 14″ and 16″. I don’t know why that would be detrimental or cause compatibility issues. Are we talking about the same thing?

[Rogue]

well I suspect the original post was likely about hats, since this is pretty much all that ever got discussed in the topics that I remember on the subject of remapping, in which case it is mostly a bad idea as there can be complications with some modules on the market.

In term of toms I can see where you would be coming from. What I don’t understand though is the difference between selecting a MIDI preset that you have made in Superior compared to switching to a tailor made kit in your module. There are none and my take on it is that you are recording MIDI that ultimately is tied to a sampler/sound source in particular – that would be by definition a bad thing in my view.

… as soon as you record custom mapped MIDI in a sequencer it loses its tie with any MIDI implementation that may exist for your hardware and it ultimately becomes dependent on additional recording notes, saved files or other resources to clearly define the musical intentions of the performer. So compatibility issues may be a big word but if given the choice I would always recommend remapping the sampler side instead of the hardware. again I can see no advantage doing it the other way around.

There is no right or wrong though but I felt there was a need to counterpoint the general idea that was present in this topic and answer the original poster:

if you did this for one user kit in the td-20, you would never have to remap any other expansion packs, since that kit would be “superior drummer friendly”. Does that make sense?

it does not to me 🙂

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[Rogue]

btw why not use an unbalanced cable for your snare if you only want one zone? or did I misunderstand you?

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[rentadrummer]

I don’t use a different cable because I still play rim shots, but I want them to produce the head sound. There’s another thread where I asked if Nir Z might have done the same thing in the video that’s shown for the New York Studios Volume 2 expansion, or remapped S2, because I don’t hear any rim sounds when he plays. To me it sounds like the higher velocities produced by the head sound, which I prefer.

[sonartoontrack]

Rogue,

Thanks for providing your perspective, I do appreciate it. Reading your post leads me to believe that the “best practice” for mapping is, perhaps, situation dependent.  And this is great conversation because I’m learning the “pros” and “cons” of each method.  In my particular case, I’m simply using the PC as a sound engine, not recording midi or anything to be shared, just playing live at practice and need to change kits quickly.

My original post (oddly enough!) wasn’t about hi-hat mapping (although I will ask one question on that later ), but rather mapping my floor tom rims (which play a muted crash and drum roll respectively on the default kit), my hart hammer triggers, and two extra crash cymbals I hook up to the td-20’s aux inputs.  

It’s surprising you bring up the compatibility and exchange issues if I remap in the td-20. I would have thought (as Ron stated) that you are more likely to run into compatibility issues by remapping in the software if you need to share projects. This part confuses me when you state:

“you are recording MIDI that ultimately is tied to a sampler/sound source in particular – that would be by definition a bad thing in my view.”

Not that I’m recording midi…but if I was, wouldn’t it preferable to have the midi tied to the default sounds provided by SD since that is my only sound engine and the midi parts are drum parts?  I’d think having a drum kit that *always* transmits the proper midi note number to the software is the ideal situation…but you have prolly forgotten more than I’ll ever know about SD, so please be patient with me…I’m a little new at this.

Regarding the hi-hat (now that you mention it!), I followed Joe and grandaddy’s directions, even though the instructions were for a vh-11 and a td-10 (I have a vh-11 and tdw-20 and am using Sonar as the host).  I did not have to do any note mapping changes in the td-20 for the hi-hats.  I simply cleared all mappings, then for each articulation, just typed in the appropriate notes from the td-20 module:

hatsCtrl = cc4
hatsTrig = 26 and 22 (for the edge)
hatsTip Trig = 46 and 42 (for the tip/bow)
closed pedal = 44

The final important step was to lower the hard limit value from 127 to 100 for the hatsCtrl articulation only to give me the tight closed hats.  

Really, the only *hi-hat* related question I have is, do I need *two* midi notes each for the hatsTrig and hatsTip Trig articulations? Doesn’t the cc4 value sent from the td-20 determine if the edge/bow is open? I don’t think the td-20 sends different notes for open and closed, at least I don’t see any in Sonar.

As I type this, I realize that I really need to learn more about midi presets.  For instance, can you use the same midi preset for any library or do you need a midi preset for each library?

Rogue, again thanks for your input. If you could answer my question on the hi-hat part, I’d appreciate it.  Now I’m going to go read up on using presets a bit further to get it through my (thick) head.

Final note: Superior Drummer has truly made my whole e-drum experience so much better. Next expansion kit in my future…Latin Kit…whoa, talk about some weird mapping possibilities there I’ll bet!!

Regards,

Phil

[Rogue]

S2 MIDI presets are Sound library independent, they are essentially rule sets that instruct the software to ‘transform’ the note internally defined for a specific articulation to another. Right now you would have to select your custom preset each time you change kit, that is true, although a better option would be to save and load S2 or Sonar templates/projects to load kits and mapping in one go. You would only need one for all the libraries in any case (unless you want specific triggering to occur for some of them).

The point I was making about trying to preserve the module’s MIDI mapping is that every TD-20 out there will have the same output/fingerprint (note wise). True I might not necessarily know whether your Aux inputs were used for a crash or an extra tom but I would definitely know that you intended some tom rims. That way the fact that you supplied me with a Superior file would be dispensable (although useful for other reasons). And what if you wanted someone to mix your track and they preferred to use another drum software? This may not be of any importance to you at this time but can you say for sure you won’t be in that situation in a few years time?

Anyway, I won’t go on about it, I’m sure you got the idea by now and as you said there are times were perhaps remapping in the module will just make life easier but my approach to it is ‘as a last resort’, only if the same result can’t be achieved any other way (I would even use a drum map before I consider it, which is to tell a lot as I am not a big fan of drum maps to say the least).

In term of hi-hat, your TD-20 certainly sends different notes not only for bow and edge (assuming the right cable, trigger and input is used) but also open and closed, CC04 is strictly to indicate how far down your foot is on the pedal. Hence 26 (open) and 22 (closed) for edge and 46 (open) and 42 (closed) for tip/bow. They are all required otherwise the software will use a mixture of discrete articulation triggering and intelligent CC/note combination with unpredictable results.

The issues I have alluded to in term of hats playback btw, are not relevant to you, as an owner of a TD-20, well unless you set the notes wrong in S2 of course, but demonstrate that unless you are VERY familiar with your hardware (and let’s face it a 1 line LCD and robotic step by step procedure to change anything is not going to help you intuitively figure much out) you can spend a few hours trying to achieve something that is simply not possible.

There are 2 cases here (from the top of my head). I have seen users telling other users to remap their Yamaha DTXplorer – bad luck, you simply can’t alter the mapping… I can only imagine how much frustration that advise has caused due to an uninformed poster.

The other is that in some hardware the notes the module send when the hihat pad is hit (and pedal) are tied to one another. Setting the notes independently is simply not possible (that’s the case for a TD-3 and IIRC TD-6) and although it may seem like you are getting somewhere with a bit of trial and error, in reality you won’t be in a fully CC managed environment on the S2 side, most likely blaming glitches on the software.

Anyway, that should give you some food for thoughts as to why using remapping in hardware is mostly undesirable. There are very few scenarios were this has an advantage (I’m not saying there are none though) and the same result can be achieved in other ways. Again though I’m all for what works for you!

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[Rogue]

ORIGINAL: rentadrummer
I don’t use a different cable because I still play rim shots, but I want them to produce the head sound.

that was my point, if you use an unbalanced cable you will shortcircuit the input and the module will send the same note regardless of what you hit… I’m 99.99999% sure that was not the case for Nir in the video but I do not know his set up for sure (I wasn’t at the show the particular demo was recorded at in any case).

Admittedly, if using several samplers, then a TD-20 user kit is probably a better option but that goes to show there are various ways to yield the same result (in term of triggering your particular sound source).

I’d still advise you to map note 40 to the head in S2 instead so as to preserve the differentiation in your recording but depending on what you want your MIDI to look like and reason for wanting the triggering of sounds as you intend it might indeed be the best option to ensure the notes that reach your sequencer are solely on number 38.

Rogue Marechal - Toontrack
Configuration Manager

[sonartoontrack]

Food for thought indeed…all fair points, explained very clearly.

Thanks.

Phil

[Author]

Replies