Am I the only guy that doesn’t get fills?

[Mitch Castle]

I went through the forum and couldn’t find anyone who had questions about inserting a fill.  Maybe it’s because I play guitar and don’t really understand drums… can some one direct me to a tutorial / manual / video (ANYTHING) that will show  me how to insert a fill correctly ?  I using EZ drummer in Sonar and I can never get the fill to work !  I drag it down and then the timing is off, so I pick it up and drag it to another area and well, I guess you get my frustration.  I always thought a fill would pop-into the correct area once you drag it close enough but NO NO NO!  Can some kind hearted person please explain why I don’t get it ?  Thanks.

Topic

[Scott]

See if this thread can help you any.

http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=71046

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[chrisharbin]

a. That thread is really cool and brings up some good points

b. Fills are hard. FREQUENTLY, I have to get inside the midi editor and make many changes (I haven’t gotten the midi fills pack yet) Velocity, too many toms…….not enough toms……it’s a tough one. One thing that can help with the groove is using the groove quantize, but I don’t know how to use that in sonar, just cubase.

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[Mitch Castle]

Thanks Scott –  I originally got frustrated with EZ Drummer and decided to go find some ready-made drum tracks. But if you’re a songwriter, there’s no way  the canned drum track is gonna make you happy.  So I went back to EZ Drummer and tried a new approach:  if you want to put in a fill, all you have to do is just  fit-it into the last count of the eight bars, right ?  So basically it ends right before the first count of the next 8 bars.   But it never sounds right…. one of your other forum users said something about adding pennies to the beginning or end of a fill to make it work.   I think I’m gonna try and learn about the snap-to feature on my software and see if that helps.  I’ve had some experience quantizing wav files but not midi files and guess I need to study that too.  You know,  I play guitar, bass, and keyboard…. just don’t understand why learning drums has to be like learning rocket science…. !

[Scott]

if you want to put in a fill, all you have to do is just  fit-it into the last count of the eight bars, right ?  So basically it ends right before the first count of the next 8 bars.   But it never sounds right….

Well, it can sound right if it’s done right.

Here’s a quick clip I just through together using the above method of removing the last measure of a groove and inserting a fill over that last measure. I think it sound very convincing and real. Of course, you may disagree.
http://www.rainbowsounds.com/Toontrack/S2%20with%20fills.mp3

Scott Sibley - Toontrack
Technical Advisor

[Whitten]

The trouble is fills are very improvised.
Even the same fill can work different ways, for example depending on which beat you start it on.
My suggestion would be this…… try locating the end of the fill first.
Look at the last bar of your verse or chorus.
Try positioning the last note of the chosen fill on either the last quarter note, or eighth note or sixteenth note of that bar.
Only one position may sound right to you, or even all three.
Fills are unfortunately rather subjective.

[Har Maes]

Most fills in the Toontrack sound libraries are one or 2 bar fills so if positioned right they ‘can’ work in a situation.
Make sure to set snap to ‘bar’ mode.
Other than that you often need to change details in the fill as mentioned by others. And as Chris mentions fills are subjective and only what sounds right for you.

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[J van E]

Hm, you guys really know how to make something simple sound complicated… 😉

EDIT:
See my post below! (A picture paints a thousand words, so… 😉 )

[J van E]

First of all, turn Snap on and make sure it’s set to Quarter (so it will work with fills of any length) and Move to (in case you add a fill before you turn Snap on: this will make sure that the clips will be alligned well after turning Snap on).

Now here we have a ‘song’ with EZD-grooves. (Notice how the clips don’t fill up the entire bars, but that’s normal: the clip simply ‘stops’ where the last hit is and everything will sound perfectly fine, as long as the left side of the clip alligns to the grid! This will also be the case with the fills you will be adding.)

We would like to add a fill in bar 4.

Here is how to add a 1/4 (one beat) fill.
I’ve positioned the Now time where the 1/4 fill has to start (you don’t have to do that: I just did it to make it clear what I am doing), which ALWAYS is at the 4th beat of the bar:

Now drag the right side of the clip to where the marker is to make space for the 1/4 fill:

Now drag the 1/4 fill into the project: point the mouse to where the marker is (in this picture anyway) and let go. The fill will be positioned at the exact right spot:

Here is how to add a 2/4 (two beat) fill.
I’ve positioned the Now time where the 2/4 fill has to start, which ALWAYS is at the 3rd beat of the bar:

Now drag the right side of the clip to where the marker is to make space for the 2/4 fill:

Now drag the 2/4 fill into the project: point the mouse to where the marker is (in this picture anyway) and let go. The fill will be positioned at the exact right spot:

Here is how to add a 4/4 (four beat, one bar) fill.
I’ve positioned the Now time where the 4/4 fill has to start, which ALWAYS is at the 1st beat of the bar:

Since a 4/4 fill will fill a complete bar, you don’t have to drag the right side of the clip, but you can delete it completely:

Now drag the 4/4 fill into the project: point the mouse to where the marker is (in this picture anyway) and let go. The fill will be positioned at the exact right spot:

That’s it! This way you simply can’t go wrong and timing will always be right. Of course certain fills might not fit musically, but as far as timing is concerned, it will be spot on every time.

[Juicy]

Yeah thats exactly it ,to some that may be complicated,but thats the same way everyone else has to do it.
I think what can throw people are the start times but it is pretty basic that a 1/4 fill would go on the last 4 of the bar you want the fill and so on.
I generally import a few and try them at different parts of the song ,usually the ones i like push/propell you into the next section or at least state HEY here we go.
Other than that suggest RollYourOwn as often as you can.

[Robert West]

Hey J van E….
I appreciate the way you showed how to input and place fills in the drum tracks. Thanks!!

[BHernandez]

mrcastle,
I too am using sonar and I am still learning the feature of the “snap to” and quantize.  I had recorded a song a while back and I had to go back and figure out the timing of the song.  Once I got the time down right of the song, I started to add the groove’s in.  But, the parts that I wanted to put a fill in, I had shorten one of the grooves to, for example, if a groove was two measures, then I would have to cut that groove in half.  Then I would insert my fill and copy/paste the previous groove.  After all that editing of the grooves, I would then highlite the track and click on the snapto feature button.  In the pallete of the snapto, there is the quantize button.  Click on that and it would set all the grooves into perfect timing with the rest of your song.  It sounds like a lot of click here and there, but I think it is worth the time to get it all in correct time.  I hope this helps a little.  Good luck!

What can I say, I love to play my drums, even though its a rinky dinky set.

[brandedheart]

I always write with two midi tracks.  I add a second midi track right underneath my basic drum track just for the fills.. It keeps everything cleaner for me in my work process.  For what its worth. 

Windows 7 x64 Ultimate Sonor PE 8.5.1 32 and 64 bit loaded Intel Quad Core QX9650, 4gig ram, Raid Array Presonus Firestudio Tube Projects typically at 24 bit 48k EZ Drummer 1.2 Superior 2.1.1

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Thanked by: TMerry

[Whitten]

Yeah, I’ve done the same.
Sometimes I also include verse variations on the second track, just in case i want to flip between the two.

[Mitch Castle]

Wow, I gave up awhile back on this thread and on a lark decided to check into it….. thanks for the input…. that’s great information!

[Ed Galvan]

you might want to look at  counting beats :
1-2-3-4
1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&-
1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a-3-e-&-a-4-e-&-a

just a suggestion.

[Author]

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