A few interesting things I’ve noticed with the VH-12 hi-hat and S2

[plink]

Alright… I’m still trying to figure out why my hi-hat sounds...

Alright… I’m still trying to figure out why my hi-hat sounds the way it does, and if anyone else has noticed this. And what may be causing / what can be done about it.

To start off… take a look at this screenshot:

This is the raw hi-hat data recorded from my TD-20 with the VH-12.

http://www.joelnielsen.com/images/edrum-midi2.JPG

As you can see there seems to be a lot of extra midi data coming in with a bit noise. (fluctuations on the height sensor midi data…) Now surprisingly the sound of the hi-hat is fine, as long as the height and velocity doesn’t fluctuate too much. But as soon as you start to open the hi-hat the sound gets extremely muddy as it changes. (It’s like there are multiple samples trying to play at the same time.) The samples also seem to cut out when a new sample starts, causing an almost static like ‘digital clip’. (I’m not clipping though, I’ve checked. )

I went through the raw data and manually cleaned it up. Tried to make everything as fluid as possible and erased all the extra notes. Here was my result.

http://www.joelnielsen.com/images/edrum-midi1.JPG

This is extremely clean, I don’t think anyone could tweak their edrum kit to output like this. So now… you would think with this very nice midi track to play off of, S2 should play beautifully. Well here’s the weird part… It does, but only about 40 percent better.

When you change from a closed hi-hat to an open hi-hat (while striking the trigger) the sound is still fairly muddy. So I think Superior 2 is still not quite doing something right here. (I have the latest version btw)

Can anyone else confirm this? On any edrum kit, but preferrably a VH-12 with TD20. I think it’s time we figure this out, I know there are others who are having the same problem. As a computer programmer myself, there’s no reason this can’t work 100% and sound exactly like the real thing.

Also, I have noticed that if I just run straight out of my TD-20 using the patches(samples) that shipped with it… the hi-hat sounds and responds perfectly. So either my midi recorder (I’m using Sonar 6.2 btw) isn’t capturing the midi data properly at all, (as having clean midi data just isn’t enough) or S2 could still use some tweaking on how it handles and outputs the hi-hat samples.

Alright… I’m still trying to figure out why my hi-hat sounds the way it does, and if anyone else has noticed this. And what may be causing / what can be done about it.

To start off… take a look at this screenshot:

This is the raw hi-hat data recorded from my TD-20 with the VH-12.

http://www.joelnielsen.com/images/edrum-midi2.JPG

As you can see there seems to be a lot of extra midi data coming in with a bit noise. (fluctuations on the height sensor midi data…) Now surprisingly the sound of the hi-hat is fine, as long as the height and velocity doesn’t fluctuate too much. But as soon as you start to open the hi-hat the sound gets extremely muddy as it changes. (It’s like there are multiple samples trying to play at the same time.) The samples also seem to cut out when a new sample starts, causing an almost static like ‘digital clip’. (I’m not clipping though, I’ve checked. )

I went through the raw data and manually cleaned it up. Tried to make everything as fluid as possible and erased all the extra notes. Here was my result.

http://www.joelnielsen.com/images/edrum-midi1.JPG

This is extremely clean, I don’t think anyone could tweak their edrum kit to output like this. So now… you would think with this very nice midi track to play off of, S2 should play beautifully. Well here’s the weird part… It does, but only about 40 percent better.

When you change from a closed hi-hat to an open hi-hat (while striking the trigger) the sound is still fairly muddy. So I think Superior 2 is still not quite doing something right here. (I have the latest version btw)

Can anyone else confirm this? On any edrum kit, but preferrably a VH-12 with TD20. I think it’s time we figure this out, I know there are others who are having the same problem. As a computer programmer myself, there’s no reason this can’t work 100% and sound exactly like the real thing.

Also, I have noticed that if I just run straight out of my TD-20 using the patches(samples) that shipped with it… the hi-hat sounds and responds perfectly. So either my midi recorder (I’m using Sonar 6.2 btw) isn’t capturing the midi data properly at all, (as having clean midi data just isn’t enough) or S2 could still use some tweaking on how it handles and outputs the hi-hat samples.

Topic

[plink]

Joe: Yeah, I think that would be a good feature to add. Maybe even something to turn it off completely as well.

I still think the crossfading is out of wack a bit tho… it really shouldn’t sound sloppy even with a quick hihat movement. And when switching between the different sample layers (ie. cc data changing from 80 down to 30) going from an open sample to a closed (or vice versa) it should still be a completely smooth transition. I would be interested in knowing exactly how you guys have the software switch between one sample to the next.  Is it even a crossfade? (or maybe the crossfade is too quick) Or is it just stop the sample, then start the next?

About my low velocity control… I just really like the sound of the ‘tight’ closed hi-hat. More over the normal ‘loose’ closed hihat.

[plink]

Hmm, I think I should clarify…. when I am talking about sample layers… I’m specifically meaning the ‘articulation changes’. The ‘sloppy sound’ or ‘bad crossfading’ is ONLY when the samples change ‘across’ different articulations.

ie. as the sound changes from the 1/2 open hi-hat sound to the 1/4 open hi-hat sound… During this articulation crossover is the problem. Not when just playing 1/2 open hi-hats and 1/2 open hi-hats next to each other. (samples of the same articulation play/crossfade perfectly)

After re-reading my posts, I think this is why there is confusion. I never actually specified this is only on consecutive hits while the articulation is changing.

I have also done much more playing and I have found what I think is the full root of the issue. When the samples are crossfaded together… they are not overlapping perfectly. They are off by a couple milliseconds, which is resulting in the two articulations being heard as two samples instead of one ‘hit’ being seamlessly crossfaded as the pedal moves up or down.(like adding a very fast ‘delay’ to a sound) This also seems to be much more noticable near the front of each sample. (right after the ‘strike’)… as the sample plays out and the sound of the hi-hat dissipates, it’s much easy to perform a smooth crossfade, so it is far less noticable.

To fix this I suggest maybe trying something like adding a variable crossfade time to your program… So that if an articulation change is triggered near the start of the sample, the crossfade will perform faster, (almost instantly) and as the sample plays out, any crossfade that may occur later on is done at a slower, more even speed. Also, if the program was ‘aware’ that an articulation crossfade had just been triggered it could further adjust or tweak the samples to ensure it is done completely smooth.

Hopefully this makes sense. If not I can upload some images showing exactly what I mean. I am also a software engineer so if you need any help with anything, I would be more than happy to.

[Per Gerdvall]

I agree to plink.
 
There are something with the hihat that makes the sound “muddy” sometimes.
 
I had a TD3 kit and now have a TD9 kit. Both had PD5 pad and FD8 for hihat, and both kit have the same problem.
In general it works fine, but sometimes in some passages in my playing I hear something with the hihat that doesn’t sound like I meant it to sound.
I can’t define it better right now.
 
Maybe it is like I understand plink is saying that when I move the pedal after a stroke there are a new sample triggered in a way that don’t sound natural to me.
 
If I play the TD9 with it’s internal sound the hihat response feels better. I can play more like a real hihat without thinking of adjusting my playing techniqe……but I rather use SD2 for the superior sounds.
regards
Pelle

TD9KX MacBook SD2 with Claustrophobic and Jazz

[Michael Cavanaugh Cavanaugh]

I have had similar problems with Superior 2.0 and the vh12 and td-20. It seems like it did help to play with the offset on the td-20. the auto setting did not work well. I definitely had to play with that setting.

My main problem is the closed hihat. I recorded midi data of the closed sound coming straight out of the td-20 and every few times I close the pedal I see that it also triggers the closed bow sound. This causes the closed pedal sound to be erratic. I called Roland and they told me that this is normal. Now it is true that it is not as big of a problem when you use the td-20 hihat sounds. So if it is normal, how do I deal with that. How do I tell the Superior 2.0 to ignore that note on the closed pedal but not when I strike the bow (closed)

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks
mike

[Damian Blunt]

I also get best performance when altering offset from within the TD-12.
 
I’ve been looking at the MIDI output from the VH-12 and have to agree it’s not the best….I too have the VH-12 and have noticed the closed sounds.  Obviously Toontrack cannot change the way the hardware peforms but as Rogue commented earlier they are always working hard to improve functionality within S2
 
One other thing I’ve suffered with the VH-12 is low level footchick (closed pedal) notes being generated when I hit the hats at a certain degree of openness…This was causing really unpleasant side-effects.  To compensate for this I created a preset for Cubase’s input transformer to filter out these low level notes….the performance improved a huge amount.  I’m happy to share this if you use cubase and are getting the same problems…..
 
 
 

Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting

[Tobbe]

Hi Grandaddy
 
I would really like to try that preset. I am using cubase aswell
 
TJ

[Damian Blunt]

No problem – I’ve attached the file….you just need to copy it to your input transformer preset folder. 

Damian Blunt - Toontrack
Quality Assurance
Betatesting

[Tobbe]

Thanks!

[Author]

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