Adam PolidoriHey everyone!
I’m trying to use superior drummer live, but am having some issues with my rig. I was hoping I could get some feedback or find out if other people are experiencing the same issue.
I’m the drummer in a metal band, and I’m planning on playing small bars (probably around 100 people) Most of these places don’t have a house system, so I bought 4 alto TS115A 15″ powered PA speakers to amplify my drums.
Here’s the problem:
When I play an .mp3 through these speakers, they are brutally loud! When I run superior drummer… not so much. The speakers indicate it’s clipping. They are both playing from my computer. I have superior drummer running in my DAW. I have a multi-band compressor and limiter running.
Any suggestions on why it’s clipping at a low volume?
Adam PolidoriThanks for the reply, Markiss!
Before getting the Alto 15″ self powered speakers, i got two JBL JRX125 with the QSC GX5. My altos are rated at 400 watts RMS a piece, and the JBLs were rated at 500 watts RMS a piece. Both setups had the same problem with superior drummer only. mp3s and any samples I’d run through the system would blow us out of the room, but superior drummer always clips at low volumes. (mp3s, samples, and superior drummer are all coming from the same source: my computer)
Is there something unique about how superior drummer outputs sound that makes it clip? Does it need to be set up a certain way to run into mixers and amps for live sound?
I recorded my band’s CD with the same settings and had no clipping issues.
NathanAt a guess, the mp3 is hypercompressed, ie lots of volume for the size of its peaks (low crest factor).
Drums played from SD2 are almost as opposite as you can get from that, they are very “spikey” (high crest factor) and so will have a relatively low volume for the size of the peaks -and SD2 is relatively unprocessed compared to even EZD, so the spikes will be larger for the same perceived volume.
You are going to either have to buy a bigger system to get the level up, or you are going to have to EQ, compress and limit the audio so that you can bring the volume up for the same peak level. Probably best to trim any frequencies south of 40Hz away for starters, unless you are sure your system can reproduce them. Compress with a low ratio (1.5:1) and a low threshold, low enough so that there is 6 to 8dB or gain reduction at the max level (this might get you up to a doubling of perceived level if done right). Use a brick wall limiter (eg Fabfilter Pro-L) to chop up to another 6dB off the peaks -this might not sound pretty if done insensitively, so USE YOUR EARS).
These steps might get you quite a bit of level increase without clipping your amps; they’re a rough parallel to what happens in mixing and mastering a track, but without the other music to mask some of the uglyness that is got away with, you might not be able to push it as far as in commercial recordings .
I provide and run stage monitors for live gigs, and raw drums are the spikiest audio you get to amplify (unless you make a hobby out of amplifying electrical faults). I get around this by using big amplifiers for lots of headroom (we rarely actually use all the power available, and usu only a fraction). On top of this we use DSP processors to limit the signal so we can push it that little bit further without clipping (clipping being the pagan slayer of HF drivers). Saying this, the smallest drum monitor I use is 500W+500W (sub plus mid-hi cab), the largest uses one side of over 5kW of power amp.
I hope this helps.
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SD2.3, NYII, C&V, MC, MF, ED, Latin Perc, Twisted, Pop, N1H, Electronic, Classic, Funkmasters, Rock Solid, Blues, Indie-Folk.
Adam PolidoriPlanetnine, this is a HUGE help! Thanks so much. I’m gonna try this out. So, ultimately, my best bet is a bigger system, though?
So here’s my next question, if I buy two powered subwoofers, will this actually allow me to play the loudspeakers at higher volumes? I believe I read somewhere that subwoofers often have a crossover that sends the lows to the sub and sends only the mids/highs to the loudspeakers. If that’s the case, will the loudspeakers be able to output more volume before clipping because the low end of the signal is being handled by the subs?
I’m new to this whole live sound thing, so I hope this makes sense…
Juicy So…
Limit the drums as explained above,if done right it will bring up all the softer stuff whilst taming wild peaks.
Then……
Turn down the Mp3 to achieve equal power from both >balance if you will<
Now turn it all up.
NathanSorry Juicy, I forgot about the “turn the mp3 down” bit
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SD2.3, NYII, C&V, MC, MF, ED, Latin Perc, Twisted, Pop, N1H, Electronic, Classic, Funkmasters, Rock Solid, Blues, Indie-Folk.
RobJamesSeems like a very odd problem to be having. Are you not using a Mixer “Live”? Where you can set your outputs of Superior to a perfect level, and do the same with your mp3 player? Even if you are playing Superior through your DAW and a mp3 is on one of your audio tracks, you simply pull down the stereo faders of your mp3 track. Try this, set up your system so your Superior Drums sound Wicked in whatever room size you’re playing in. Now connect your mp3 player, and turn the level way down on it. Now slowly bring it up, until it fills the entire room with the perfect volume………..same as your drums now sound! Or am I missing something completely, here? I use powered Mackie HR824’s in my Studio to monitor and mix Superior sounds, and I can’t even get it up to a 1/4 of the volume scale, before it’s blistering LOUD!!
Adam PolidoriHi RobJames! Thanks for the reply. I think setting the levels of Superior may be my problem because I’ve been able to eliminate all other issues. The mp3 is playing from the same computer as Superior and they are both outputting from my DAW to the powered speakers the same way which leads me to believe it’s not a hardware issue or connectivity.
I am still unable to figure out why I can’t get my drums as loud as the mp3s. When the mp3 is playing, it’s really loud and the powered speakers do not indicate clipping. When I play Superior Drummer, it’s clipping at the speakers and it’s not as loud as the mp3. I tried to suggestions from PlanetNine and also have used subwoofers with built in crossovers so the really low bass (under 100Hz) frequencies are not sent to the satellite speakers. Those Altos are rated at 800 watts peak (400 RMS) a piece. I think the drums should be crushingly loud with no clipping when I’m using 4 of them, right? Any ideas?
NathanORIGINAL: OCD Adam
Planetnine, this is a HUGE help! Thanks so much. I’m gonna try this out. So, ultimately, my best bet is a bigger system, though?
I’m sorry, I missed this post Adam.
Having a system with sub-bass cabs should allow you to run your mid-hi cabs/tops at a higher level than before without clipping, as some of the headroom-eating low frequencies will be catered for by the “subs”. This is providing they’re connected correctly and also providing they are run inside their rating of course.
With powered or “active” PA, you usually run the signal into the sub’s input and then out of a “high-pass” or mid-high output on the sub’s backplate into the midhigh cabs. This means the signal fed to those cabs has the low frequencies filtered out that the subs are meant for. You then balance the sound, sub to mid-high with the mid-high cab input gain. Note you are increasing the gain or level to these top cabs, but the actual volume will depend on the signal level and frequencies being played thugh them.
Have I misunderstood the original issue? That you just needed to reduce the level of the mp3? It is a shock lesson in the fact that peak level and perceived volume can mean completely different things. As RobJames suggests, a hardware mixer is the ideal way to balance your drums and mp3 in a live situation, but this requires separate outputs from your DAW, and of course an available mixer. You should be able to do this with your laptop with some care, setting the faders, but use a small mixer if you can as it will give you meters and grabbable controls just where you need them -more convenient and safer too.
What RobJames may be forgetting is the Mackie 824 is a studio monitor designed for monitoring unprocessed sounds, and as such will cope with high headroom-requiring, “spikey”, unprocessed drums by default, it’s meant to. I wouldn’t want to run a gig with a pair if I had to bring them back intact though people forget about the inverse-square law, they wouldn’t stand up to a pair of horn-loaded, constant directivity boxes to get the noise where it was needed, even at the same power.
Have you solved your issue now? Does it work as required?
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SD2.3, NYII, C&V, MC, MF, ED, Latin Perc, Twisted, Pop, N1H, Electronic, Classic, Funkmasters, Rock Solid, Blues, Indie-Folk.
Adam PolidoriAfter etensive of tweaking with limiters and compressors, I’ve finally gotten some more (perceived) volume out of SD2. You guys were spot on with your suggestions. I just didn’t realize at first how heavily raw drum sounds need to be processed to achieve a good sound that is usable in a live setting. Thanks for all your help everyone!
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