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[DESIGN] 2Z/3Z Choke Capable Cymbal (by PFozz)

E-drum Workshop
Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 54 total)
  • PFozz
    Participant

    And here’s a simple 1Zone splash.
     

     
    Covering the bell is probably not a good idea, though 😉
     
    Best.

    www.eareckon.com

    PFozz
    Participant

    A 18″ China.
     

     

    www.eareckon.com

    tazinnuedo
    Participant

    hi pfozz!

    it’s been a long time!!!!
    i have sent you an email for a lot of things… and one question about this thread :
    what is the bitumen tape and where can we buy it?

    francois

    PFozz
    Participant

    Hi François,
     
    It’s nice to see you here again 🙂
     
    The french translation for “bitumen tape” is “Bande d’étanchéité goudronnée auto-adhesive à froid”.
    I found it at “Castorama”.
     
    Cheers!
     
    PS : I’ve replied to your email.

    www.eareckon.com

    lidrummer
    Participant

    Hey PFozz,
     
    Great tutorial…very concise.  I’d like to ask a few questions if you don’t mind.  I have been playing around with Beatnik’s design (practice cymbal below an acoustic cymbal) and trying to modify it to work as a dual zone with choke.  I was going to try to modify it using a concept proposed by Cosmograph over on vdrums.com.  The basic idea is to mount the second (edge) piezo on a cantilevered beam on the underside of the cymbal.  This is supposed to give good separation between the bow and edge piezo.
     
    Before going through all that work, I thought I would give your design a shot.  So, I opened up my Beatnik cymbal and mounted an edge piezo near the edge.  I hooked everything up via the Raper circuit and viola…to my surprise, I got edge sounds.  Although I really had to crank up the resistance on the potentiometer to prevent the edge sound from triggering with even the slightest hit.  I wasn’t ever to get it to go away for moderate hits so I probably need more resistance (I am already up to 100K).
     
    Anyways, my real question is about the choke capability.  I got the cymbal to choke under two conditions:  (1) if I hit the edge fairly hard and (2) if I squeezed the edge near the piezo (sometimes).  So my question is, could you explain how and why the choke works and do you have any tips on how to improve it’s behavior (ie. not choking when striking it hard and improving the consistency of choking while squeezing the edge).
     
    Thanks,
    lidrummer

    PFozz
    Participant

    Hi Lidrummer,

    How the choke capability works :

    Here’s how most modules calculate what must be done :

    Excited Main Piezo + Activated Switch (simultaneously) = [EDGE] the edge note is played/sent
    Sleeping Main Piezo + Activated Switch = [CHOKE] all the sounds assigned to this multizone trigger stop playing and a KeyAftertouch MIDI message is sent.

    Why it works :

    Edge hits :
    The PP to PS adapter converts the signal coming from the edge piezo to a “switch state”.
    Since the edge zone isn’t dampened (no bitumen tape), the edge piezo will be far more excited if you hit the edge.
    And if the sensitivity of the edge piezo is reduced (using a pot or a resistor), the “switch” will be activated on hits on the edge only. 
    Of course, if both the bow zone and the edge zone are equally dampened, the difference between a hit on the bow and a hit on the edge won’t be obvious.

    Choking :
    Piezo transducers react to bending actions.

    Troubleshooting :

    > I got the cymbal to choke if I hit the edge fairly hard.
    The edge piezo is probably excited twice (double triggering). Firstly, check if the practice cymbal doesn’t slap back the acoustic cymbal or something like that. Then try to reduce the edge piezo sensitivity using a pot/resistor and/or a disc of double-sided foam tape between the piezo and the cymbal.

    > I want to improve the consistency of choking while squeezing the edge.
    You may try to extend the “choking area”. Cut an arc of circle out of metal or thin MDF. Place 2 pieces of foam at its extremities and another (smaller) one at the “middle” of this arc so the extremities touch the cymbal while the “middle” lay on the piezo. I haven’t tested that, but I plan to add something like that to some of my cymbals.

    I hope this helps,
    Best.

    www.eareckon.com

    lidrummer
    Participant

    PFozz,
     
    Thanks for the response with the additional info.  I think everything is starting to make sense now. 
     
    Double Hitting of Main Piezo:
    I currently have a sheet of rubber toolbox liner material between the a-cymbal and the plastic cymbal but it covers the entire surface area of both.  I also have the bow piezo mounted via double sided foam tape to the plastic cymbal near the bell with another pad of foam on top of it between the piezo and the a-cymbal.  I think that I should be able to fix this problem by adding another sheet and cutting the diameter of both sheets back to expose more of the edge of the cymbal where the edge piezo is.  This should also help isolate the two piezos from each other a little more.  Kind of like you did with your tape.  Also, I am going to remove the foam on top of the piezo to try to make it a little “hotter” than the edge piezo. 
     

     
    > You may try to extend the “choking area”…
    Funny you should mention this.  I was discussing my thoughts on the “under the plastic cymbal beam with the edge piezo mounted to the tip” design with some co-workers today.  They tended to think that this was probably not a very robust idea.  So, we came up with an idea to do exactly what you suggested…an arc of thin metal supported at the two ends.  I was actually going to mount the edge piezo directly to the midspan of the arc and place a rubber/foam dot under it (between the piezo and the plastic cymbal).  That way when I press on the plastic cymbal, the vibrations of the edge piezo should stop?
     
    Thanks again,
    lidrummer
     

    Todd
    Participant

    Hi Pfozz I am new to this forum. I am in the process of building the 3 zone ride. I have the TD20 Roland brain. Could you please go into more detail about building the 3 zone ride for Roland. Are you able to get all three zones to choke? I am using a 180 degree half circle piece of sheet metal and spaced with foam tape for the choke mechanism, this is mounted to a cymbal. I have been having trouble getting all three zones to choke. I can get the bow and edge to choke but when I wire in the bell that is connected to a separate jack output it makes the bell and edge trigger the same sounds simultaneously since they are both on the sleeve and ring of the jacks and the those wires all need to connect to the choke making them a circuit. What I need to do is to get that bell to choke along with the bow and edge but have the bell not be connected to the other piezo transducers. Does this make sense? Its a bit hard to describe. Maybe a step by step of the Roland three zone would help me. Any advice on getting the entire cymbal to choke using my metal choke ring and keeping it three zone would be great. Thanks so much, Toddzilla

    royalletones
    Participant

    hi http://www.toontrack.com/forum/showProfile.aspx?memid=890

    thanks for this thread. can you give me the parts/materials need for bow and edge switching including diagram if you don’t mind.

    thanks

    R.H.
    Participant

    I’ll second that request… I would love to hear more about this concept.  Thanks PFozz 🙂

    PFozz
    Participant

    Hi all,
     
    Using a TD-20, I think a CY12RC or a CY15 should work the way you want, if both the cymbal sockets are linked to the Ride/Edge inputs couple of your module.
    What you need is a cymbal that works the same as such a cymbal : One piezo and 2 switches.
     
    Here is a diagram :
     

     
     
    Hope this helps,
    Best.

    www.eareckon.com

    tazinnuedo
    Participant

    hi all!!!

    if it’s for a td20, you have to invert polarity on the MAIN piezo…
    in the pfozz wiring diagram, ceramic part is link to the tip of the jack and yellow part, to th sleeve…
    with roland module, you have to invert:   ceramic part to the sleeve   and yellow part to the tip…

    it’s only for the main piezo!!!
    it will work if you don’t invert, but i think you will have better rim detection if you invert the wires…(i think roland invert polarity, so the module can easilly detect if the voltage signal comes from main piezo or rim piezo

    francois

    edit 10/04/08 :

    i have build today a 16 inches 1 zone crash, with choke switch…  it’s only the mechanical part (no have time to finish today, i only have to put a piezo and it will be ok)
    the choke is very simple: aluminium (in your kitchen) double side taped on the bitumen tape  (there is a wire which is in contact with the aluminium)   then, first place mat cut where there is aluminium below   and second place mat bigger than first to cover what you’ve just cut    you have to put aluminium below this second place mat (same technic: double side tape, wire, aluminium)

    the result :

    francois
    others photos on http://edrum.spaces.live.com/
    (oops some problemsto upload pics)

    tazinnuedo
    Participant

    photos available on http://edrum.spaces.live.com/

    francois

    artzra
    Participant

     I Want know how made a PP to PS adapter ??

    where can i have a shema ?

    tazinnuedo
    Participant
Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 54 total)

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